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Groups > alt.atheism > #1955703
| From | "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | alt.atheism |
| Subject | Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages |
| Date | 2015-08-08 18:42 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <d2mpr8F1ktgU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | (11 earlier) <mpvhc3$h1h$1@dont-email.me> <d2h1hlFitjpU1@mid.individual.net> <mq058b$us1$1@dont-email.me> <d2m4n6Fqvk6U1@mid.individual.net> <hlwdjsd2-8B2A8E.05551308082015@news.giganews.com> |
On 08/08/2015 14:55, Jeanne Douglas wrote: > In article <d2m4n6Fqvk6U1@mid.individual.net>, > "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > >> On 06/08/2015 19:26, Tom McDonald wrote: >>> On 8/6/2015 7:16 AM, Alex W. wrote: >>>> On 06/08/2015 13:46, Tom McDonald wrote: >>>>> On 8/5/2015 11:20 PM, AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com wrote: >>>>>> On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 9:14:49 PM UTC-7, hypatiab7 wrote: >>>>> >>>>> <huge mercy-snip> >>>>> >>>>>>> Some tribes are what is commonly called primitive and have never >>>>>>> developed their language beyond what was needed in their >>>>>>> comfortable environment. That doesn't mean that, if they move or >>>>>>> their environment changes, that their language can't change or >>>>>>> become more complex or even less complex due to the changes in how >>>>>>> they have to live. In such cases there is always more than one >>>>>>> answer or explanation for how people behave or develop or even fall >>>>>>> back, as far as their culture and language is concerned. >>>>>> >>>>>> excuses, excuses >>>>>> >>>>>> you could never say, "you Johnboi, me Michelleolivegoiyo." >>>>>> >>>>> Every human being, every human group, has been evolving for precisely >>>>> the same length of time. There are no 'primitive' groups that somehow >>>>> just started speaking a few generations ago. We've been speaking for at >>>>> least hundreds of thousands of years, and every human group descends >>>>> from people who had language for that length of time. >>>> >>>> In this context, it might be worth reading up on language deprivation >>>> experiments where newborn children were denied exposure to any sort of >>>> language in an effort to find the "original" human language. Very cruel >>>> actions in the name of science.... >>> >>> Yeah, fucked up shit done to infinks in the name of science is perhaps >>> one of the worst things done to humans other than outright physical and >>> (other) mental torture. >> >> Absolutely. It's abuse of the highest order. >> >> And it doesn't even have the saving grace of producing any sort of >> scientifically useful results. >> >> >>> >>>>> So there are no 'primitive' languages in the sense that they just >>>>> started a little while ago and have to 'catch up' to other, more >>>>> long-developed languages. >>>> >>>> There are a few instances of "spontaneous" language development, such as >>>> Creoles or several instances of deaf sign language evolving from >>>> scratch. Hugely interesting .... >>> >>> Creoles are examples of merging of languages, or radical adaptation of a >>> language to a new population and/or environment. The base language(s) >>> have the same time depth of development as other languages. >> >> True, that; but don't you think this evolution of a new language gives >> insight into how languages develop? Creole speakers would originally >> have taken available linguistic sources, thrown out all the rules and >> started making something new. This would, it seems to me, allow us to >> observe the development of grammar in real time, for instance. > > I'll bet there's literature out there about the development of Haitian > Creole. Lots of theses. There is, and it's fascinating stuff ... at least the parts of it that I as a non-linguist can understand. > > >>> The case of sign languages is somewhat the same, and somewhat different. >>> The same as they are usually (always?) based on the language of the >>> culture they come from. Different in that they use short-cuts, syntax, >>> grammar, and gestures and facial expressions in ways much more >>> free-flowing and expressive, in many cases, than the base language(s) >>> they come from. I suspect some deaf folks pity the lack of color and >>> flair hearing folks are stuck with in the base language. >> >> How can deaf people base their sign language on the language of their >> culture if they never heard it? Particularly if the speakers are also >> illiterate... > > They can read. In the West, they can. I was thinking of spontaneously evolving sign languages in West Africa or Palestine where literacy is the exception rather than the norm. > > But it does diverge from their home culture because of the different way > the hearing-impaired experience the world. And it IS a subculture > absolutely. One with debates about what to do when cures for certain > conditions are found that would let babies escape deafness; some think > it's a treasonous act removing offspring of the group from the culture. > You're stating that you are flawed when you're perfectly suited for the > culture in which you live, where everybody else has this one trait in > common. > It is a sub-culture, absolutely. And as such, it faces the same dilemmas as any other sub-culture. Is assimilation a good thing? How far should one go to preserve cultural distinctiveness? What about the children: is cultural allegiance more important than their chances in the wider world? What is lost, what is gained? > >> It's fascinating stuff in any case .... >> >> http://www.boker.org.il/english/newsignlanguage.htm >> >> In this context, it's interesting to note that sign languages are often >> not related in the same way as the languages of their wider society may >> be. Frex, American Sign Language and British Sign Language are quite >> distinct and mutually unintelligible. A USaian deaf person visiting the >> UK would need a translator the way his hearing partner wouldn't... >> Now that is truly screwy, IMO. > > Interesting that they've separated so quickly. They did not separate. They have different roots. That is what I find riveting. Both BSL and ASL as taught and used today originated in sign languages that developed informally among communities with many deaf people and/or institutions (schools) for the deaf. ASL has some similarity with French sign language because one of the early teachers was French and taught the French system adapted to local US usage. A visible difference is that BSL is much more two-handed than ASL. In either case, the languages bear no grammatical relationship to English. What struck me as thoroughly funny was a comment by a Brit who said that even when he learned an used ASL, Americans would tell (sign) him that he signed with an accent. > > >>>>> Some languages are simpler in grammar, syntax, vocabulary, etc., than >>>>> others. And some of the languages you, Jonniboi, think are 'primitive' >>>>> are in fact the most complex and difficult languages of all. >>>> >>>> "Primitive" is in any case a matter of definition and perspective. Is a >>>> degree of complication primitive or sophisticated? Is the spread or >>>> ease of learning a language primitive or sophisticated? It all boils >>>> down to one's personal bias and philosophical predilections.... >>>> >>> My reading of Asstroll's view of 'primitive' was that he meant simple, >>> unsophisticated and perhaps quite newly acquired. My thinking was >>> related to the YEC's lack of understanding of time-depth of history, >>> languages included. Might be wrong about part or all of that. But I like >>> my theory, and I'm stickin' to it! >>> >> >> I like your theory, too, and I am pretty damned confident that you are >> spot on. > > The way some of them are able to jump back and forth between 5000 years > ago and 4 billion years ago without any clue how vast the distance is > strong evidence. > Maybe that is one small reason why there are so many fewer creationists and other fundies in Europe: over here, it is just so much harder to avoid the evidence of the ages. When we can take someone to Stonehenge or the magalithic temples of Malta, out their hand to the stone and say "look at them, they were built before your YE calculations claim the earth was even created" it is much harder to persist in such lunacy.
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Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-01 22:19 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-01 22:54 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-02 08:34 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-02 11:07 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-02 11:24 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-02 18:43 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-03 10:06 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Paul <papa_fox@cybertown.com> - 2015-08-03 10:18 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@charter.net> - 2015-08-03 15:48 -0500
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-03 19:37 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-03 19:30 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Paul <papa_fox@cybertown.com> - 2015-08-04 08:49 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Don Martin <drdonmartin@comcast.net> - 2015-08-04 17:30 -0400
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Paul <papa_fox@cybertown.com> - 2015-08-04 14:55 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-04 17:22 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2015-08-04 21:43 +0000
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Paul <papa_fox@cybertown.com> - 2015-08-04 14:54 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2015-08-04 17:11 -0500
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-05 21:01 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-05 21:10 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages "Malte Runz" <malte_runz@forgitit.dk> - 2015-08-05 01:19 +0200
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages "Malte Runz" <malte_runz@forgitit.dk> - 2015-08-05 19:05 +0200
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-04 17:17 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-05 13:31 +0200
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-05 20:57 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-05 21:14 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-05 21:20 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-05 21:43 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@charter.net> - 2015-08-06 06:46 -0500
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-06 14:16 +0200
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@charter.net> - 2015-08-06 12:26 -0500
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-08 12:41 +0200
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@charter.net> - 2015-08-08 06:19 -0500
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2015-08-08 05:55 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-08 18:42 +0200
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-05 21:41 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hhyapster@gmail.com - 2015-08-04 16:59 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Don Martin <drdonmartin@comcast.net> - 2015-08-02 15:32 -0400
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2015-08-02 10:39 -0500
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages MarkA <someone@somewhere.invalid> - 2015-08-02 19:03 +0000
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-05 21:46 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Paul <papa_fox@cybertown.com> - 2015-08-02 07:28 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-02 08:35 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Paul <papa_fox@cybertown.com> - 2015-08-02 10:44 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-05 21:52 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 07:49 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2015-08-02 12:23 -0500
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 10:44 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Paul <papa_fox@cybertown.com> - 2015-08-02 10:57 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2015-08-02 21:21 +0000
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2015-08-02 18:51 -0500
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-03 18:53 +0200
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2015-08-02 13:14 -0500
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Davej <galt_57@hotmail.com> - 2015-08-02 09:09 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2015-08-02 17:38 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages regniermarco3@gmail.com - 2015-08-02 08:02 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages regniermarco3@gmail.com - 2015-08-02 08:02 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Wexford Eire <wexford.eire.1798@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 12:20 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-02 18:41 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Wexford Eire <wexford.eire.1798@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 21:59 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-02 22:44 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Wexford Eire <wexford.eire.1798@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 06:34 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@charter.net> - 2015-08-03 11:22 -0500
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com - 2015-08-03 09:47 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2015-08-03 14:41 -0500
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2015-08-03 00:03 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2015-08-03 08:24 -0500
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Paul <papa_fox@cybertown.com> - 2015-08-03 10:25 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Planet Visitor II <nappy@nosuchserver.com> - 2015-08-03 13:56 -0400
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Wexford Eire <wexford.eire.1798@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 18:18 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Planet Visitor II <nappy@nosuchserver.com> - 2015-08-05 17:23 -0400
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Wexford Eire <wexford.eire.1798@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 21:35 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-03 10:50 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Wexford Eire <wexford.eire.1798@gmail.com> - 2015-08-04 17:19 -0700
Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com - 2015-08-02 12:30 -0700
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