Groups > alt.atheism > #1955502

Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages

From	"Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk>
Newsgroups	alt.atheism
Subject	Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages
Date	2015-08-08 12:41 +0200
Message-ID	<d2m4n6Fqvk6U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(9 earlier) <abf772e8-7640-46ae-b766-fb4927f69c4d@googlegroups.com> <c46cd20a-271d-4ef5-af57-a444fa393fcd@googlegroups.com> <mpvhc3$h1h$1@dont-email.me> <d2h1hlFitjpU1@mid.individual.net> <mq058b$us1$1@dont-email.me>

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On 06/08/2015 19:26, Tom McDonald wrote:
> On 8/6/2015 7:16 AM, Alex W. wrote:
>> On 06/08/2015 13:46, Tom McDonald wrote:
>>> On 8/5/2015 11:20 PM, AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, August 5, 2015 at 9:14:49 PM UTC-7, hypatiab7 wrote:
>>>
>>> <huge mercy-snip>
>>>
>>>>> Some tribes are what is commonly called primitive and have never
>>>>> developed their language beyond what was needed in their
>>>>> comfortable environment. That doesn't mean that, if they move or
>>>>> their environment changes, that their language can't change or
>>>>> become more complex or even less complex due to the changes in how
>>>>> they have to live. In such cases there is always more than one
>>>>> answer or explanation for how people behave or develop or even fall
>>>>> back, as far as their culture and language is concerned.
>>>>
>>>> excuses, excuses
>>>>
>>>> you could never say, "you Johnboi, me Michelleolivegoiyo."
>>>>
>>> Every human being, every human group, has been evolving for precisely
>>> the same length of time. There are no 'primitive' groups that somehow
>>> just started speaking a few generations ago. We've been speaking for at
>>> least hundreds of thousands of years, and every human group descends
>>> from people who had language for that length of time.
>>
>> In this context, it might be worth reading up on language deprivation
>> experiments where newborn children were denied exposure to any sort of
>> language in an effort to find the "original" human language.  Very cruel
>> actions in the name of science....
>
> Yeah, fucked up shit done to infinks in the name of science is perhaps
> one of the worst things done to humans other than outright physical and
> (other) mental torture.

Absolutely.  It's abuse of the highest order.

And it doesn't even have the saving grace of producing any sort of 
scientifically useful results.


>
>>> So there are no 'primitive' languages in the sense that they just
>>> started a little while ago and have to 'catch up' to other, more
>>> long-developed languages.
>>
>> There are a few instances of "spontaneous" language development, such as
>> Creoles or several instances of deaf sign language evolving from
>> scratch.  Hugely interesting ....
>
> Creoles are examples of merging of languages, or radical adaptation of a
> language to a new population and/or environment. The base language(s)
> have the same time depth of development as other languages.

True, that; but don't you think this evolution of a new language gives 
insight into how languages develop?  Creole speakers would originally 
have taken available linguistic sources, thrown out all the rules and 
started making something new.  This would, it seems to me, allow us to 
observe the development of grammar in real time, for instance.


>
> The case of sign languages is somewhat the same, and somewhat different.
> The same as they are usually (always?) based on the language of the
> culture they come from. Different in that they use short-cuts, syntax,
> grammar, and gestures and facial expressions in ways much more
> free-flowing and expressive, in many cases, than the base language(s)
> they come from. I suspect some deaf folks pity the lack of color and
> flair hearing folks are stuck with in the base language.

How can deaf people base their sign language on the language of their 
culture if they never heard it?  Particularly if the speakers are also 
illiterate...

It's fascinating stuff in any case ....

http://www.boker.org.il/english/newsignlanguage.htm

In this context, it's interesting to note that sign languages are often 
not related in the same way as the languages of their wider society may 
be.  Frex, American Sign Language and British Sign Language are quite 
distinct and mutually unintelligible.  A USaian deaf person visiting the 
UK would need a translator the way his hearing partner wouldn't...
Now that is truly screwy, IMO.


>
>>> Some languages are simpler in grammar, syntax, vocabulary, etc., than
>>> others. And some of the languages you, Jonniboi, think are 'primitive'
>>> are in fact the most complex and difficult languages of all.
>>
>> "Primitive" is in any case a matter of definition and perspective.  Is a
>> degree of complication primitive or sophisticated?  Is the spread or
>> ease of learning a language primitive or sophisticated?  It all boils
>> down to one's personal bias and philosophical predilections....
>>
> My reading of Asstroll's view of 'primitive' was that he meant simple,
> unsophisticated and perhaps quite newly acquired. My thinking was
> related to the YEC's lack of understanding of time-depth of history,
> languages included. Might be wrong about part or all of that. But I like
> my theory, and I'm stickin' to it!
>

I like your theory, too, and I am pretty damned confident that you are 
spot on.

Thread

Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-01 22:19 -0700
  Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-01 22:54 -0700
    Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-02 08:34 -0700
      Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-02 11:07 -0700
        Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-02 11:24 -0700
          Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-02 18:43 -0700
            Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-03 10:06 -0700
            Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Paul <papa_fox@cybertown.com> - 2015-08-03 10:18 -0700
              Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@charter.net> - 2015-08-03 15:48 -0500
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-03 19:37 -0700
              Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-03 19:30 -0700
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Paul <papa_fox@cybertown.com> - 2015-08-04 08:49 -0700
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Don Martin <drdonmartin@comcast.net> - 2015-08-04 17:30 -0400
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Paul <papa_fox@cybertown.com> - 2015-08-04 14:55 -0700
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-04 17:22 -0700
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2015-08-04 21:43 +0000
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Paul <papa_fox@cybertown.com> - 2015-08-04 14:54 -0700
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2015-08-04 17:11 -0500
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-05 21:01 -0700
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-05 21:10 -0700
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages "Malte Runz" <malte_runz@forgitit.dk> - 2015-08-05 01:19 +0200
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages "Malte Runz" <malte_runz@forgitit.dk> - 2015-08-05 19:05 +0200
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-04 17:17 -0700
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-05 13:31 +0200
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-05 20:57 -0700
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-05 21:14 -0700
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-05 21:20 -0700
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-05 21:43 -0700
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@charter.net> - 2015-08-06 06:46 -0500
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-06 14:16 +0200
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@charter.net> - 2015-08-06 12:26 -0500
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-08 12:41 +0200
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@charter.net> - 2015-08-08 06:19 -0500
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2015-08-08 05:55 -0700
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-08 18:42 +0200
                Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-05 21:41 -0700
            Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hhyapster@gmail.com - 2015-08-04 16:59 -0700
        Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Don Martin <drdonmartin@comcast.net> - 2015-08-02 15:32 -0400
    Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2015-08-02 10:39 -0500
    Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages MarkA <someone@somewhere.invalid> - 2015-08-02 19:03 +0000
      Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-05 21:46 -0700
  Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Paul <papa_fox@cybertown.com> - 2015-08-02 07:28 -0700
    Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-02 08:35 -0700
      Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Paul <papa_fox@cybertown.com> - 2015-08-02 10:44 -0700
      Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-05 21:52 -0700
  Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 07:49 -0700
    Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2015-08-02 12:23 -0500
      Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages nature bats last <seqklogw@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 10:44 -0700
        Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Paul <papa_fox@cybertown.com> - 2015-08-02 10:57 -0700
          Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Smiler <smiler@jo.king> - 2015-08-02 21:21 +0000
            Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2015-08-02 18:51 -0500
          Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-03 18:53 +0200
        Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2015-08-02 13:14 -0500
  Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Davej <galt_57@hotmail.com> - 2015-08-02 09:09 -0700
    Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2015-08-02 17:38 -0700
  Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages regniermarco3@gmail.com - 2015-08-02 08:02 -0700
  Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages regniermarco3@gmail.com - 2015-08-02 08:02 -0700
  Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Wexford Eire <wexford.eire.1798@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 12:20 -0700
    Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-02 18:41 -0700
      Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Wexford Eire <wexford.eire.1798@gmail.com> - 2015-08-02 21:59 -0700
        Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages AsteroidSeven@yahoo.com - 2015-08-02 22:44 -0700
          Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Wexford Eire <wexford.eire.1798@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 06:34 -0700
            Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@charter.net> - 2015-08-03 11:22 -0500
              Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com - 2015-08-03 09:47 -0700
              Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2015-08-03 14:41 -0500
        Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2015-08-03 00:03 -0700
          Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2015-08-03 08:24 -0500
          Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Paul <papa_fox@cybertown.com> - 2015-08-03 10:25 -0700
        Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Planet Visitor II <nappy@nosuchserver.com> - 2015-08-03 13:56 -0400
          Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Wexford Eire <wexford.eire.1798@gmail.com> - 2015-08-03 18:18 -0700
            Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Planet Visitor II <nappy@nosuchserver.com> - 2015-08-05 17:23 -0400
              Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Wexford Eire <wexford.eire.1798@gmail.com> - 2015-08-05 21:35 -0700
      Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages hypatiab7 <hypatiab7@comcast.net> - 2015-08-03 10:50 -0700
        Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages Wexford Eire <wexford.eire.1798@gmail.com> - 2015-08-04 17:19 -0700
  Re: Defies Evolution Fraud: Languages rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com - 2015-08-02 12:30 -0700

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