Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560?

From	Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design, comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560?
Date	2013-09-09 10:19 -0700
Organization	Consultant
Message-ID	<b96e9jF51t3U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(17 earlier) <l0g86a$8mr$1@dont-email.me> <b91nv5F5t7nU1@mid.individual.net> <67c36$522baf5d$5f6173bc$18503@abuse.newsxs.nl> <b91sp9F6pktU1@mid.individual.net> <4e395$522de425$5f6173bc$2070@abuse.newsxs.nl>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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Stef wrote:
> In comp.arch.embedded,
> Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Stef wrote:
>>> In comp.arch.embedded,
>>> Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Nope. Not if it's in the worlds of medical or aerospace. There you have
>>>> a huge re-cert effort on your hands for changes. New layout? Back to the
>>>> end of the line.
>>> That is not always true (at least for medical equipment, no experience
>>> with aerospace). If the change is minor enough, it may be enough to
>>> write a rationale that explains the change and how it does not impact
>>> the function of the equipment. If the notified body agrees with the
>>> rationale, only a limitied effort is required to re-cert.
>>>
>> I really doubt they would agree if a code re-compilation was required to
>> make this work. With code and firmware they have become very careful
>> because there have been to many mishaps.
> 
> That depends on the software risk class. If the software imposes no risk
> (risk mitigated in hardware for example), I don't think they would care.
> 

That is almost never the case. An FPGA, just like a DSP or uC, is too
close to the game to be able to make that kind of safety claim in most
cases.


>> Most of the time the notified bodies or even the FDA do not care much
>> about the code, they care about your process. So then the onus is on the
>> company, and there mostly on the VP of Quality Control. He or she will
>> normally not take a re-compile lightly, or as something that can be
>> brushed under the carpet as "not too risky".
> 
> Indeed, you need to have procedures in place for changes and lifecycle
> management.
> 

We always do. But then you must also follow those procedures and
document that you did. Meaning there will be a lot of effort after each
design change no matter what. It really doesn't make much of a
difference whether the FDA checks such compliance directly or you
self-certify (honesty assumed here).


>> It is the same with some hardware. I went through a whole re-cert once
>> just because we had to switcher the manufacturer for one little transformer.
> 
> I guess that was a safety critical (isolation?) transformer then.


Yup. In medical they almost all are, even signal transformers.


> Depending on the available paperwork and test data that could require
> re-testing some parts. But re-certing the whole device sounds a bit
> too much, but I don't know the circumstances.
> 

Not for the whole unit but, for example, a power module. It has to go
through the whole UL spiel again. Doesn't really matter if it's the
whole machine or a smaller part of it, the effort, time and cost are
quite similar.

In some markets such a change requires full re-cert, the whole enchilada.


> What can also happen is that an old medical device was certified
> under the 1st edition of the european 60601 standard. If you then
> change something, chances are that you need to re-cert for the 2nd
> edition.
> 
> At least that was until the release of the 3rd edition. That now
> requires that everything you sell is certified under the 3rd edition,
> not only changed devices. A huge re-certing effort for all older
> devices, changed or not.
> 

A boondoggle for test labs.


>> The bottomline is that in the unlikely but possible situation where
>> something bad happens you need to be prepared. Then there will be a
>> barrage of request for documents from the regression testing and all
>> that. Woe to those who then don't have them.
> 
> Yes, that is where having (and using!) procedures and standards is
> a real benefit.
>

For my office I have them even for non-med and non-aero designs.


>>>> Sometimes changing is very time consuming. I recently learned that this
>>>> is even the case for alarm systems. "If we even add as much as one
>>>> capacitor for EMC we have to go through the whole insurer certification
>>>> process again".
>>> Weird, I would expect a similar approach with a rationale or something
>>> would be enough. 
>>>
>> There are many other markets with similar requirements. One of them is
>> railroad electronics, especially for countries like Germany.
> 
> I understand that those markets have strict requirements. But it surprises
> me that their only answer to (minor) changes would be: recertify the
> entire device. Instead of: Show us the changes and their effect and we'll
> then see if we need full re-cert or just partial.
> 

All I can tell you is what my clients tell me, "If we add this one diode
we would have to do this all over ..."


> In my experience, in medical device you can sometimes do changes without
> re-certification, but certainly not always. Thats why I started with "That
> is not always true". 
> 

In the end the effort is mostly almost the same. In SW or firmware it's
regression testing et cetera. For safety boundary changes it's module
tests. And there it hardly makes a difference how much of it must be
re-tested.

Similar in aerospace. You change something on a module that goes into
aircraft and whoops, the whole RTCA/DO-160 testing has to be done all
over again. There are very few changes that would not trigger this.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Thread

AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-19 13:14 -0700
  Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2013-08-20 20:16 +0100
  Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Vladimir Vassilevsky <nospam@nowhere.com> - 2013-08-21 14:47 -0500
    Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Jim Stewart <jstewart@jkmicro.com> - 2013-08-21 13:18 -0700
    Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-21 16:38 -0700
      Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? "Tim Williams" <tmoranwms@charter.net> - 2013-08-21 21:30 -0500
        Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-22 10:51 -0700
          Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-06 16:26 -0400
            Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-06 13:33 -0700
              Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-06 17:12 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-06 16:10 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-06 23:59 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 08:10 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 13:03 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 10:59 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 14:54 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 12:39 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 16:44 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 14:48 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? "Tim Williams" <tmoranwms@charter.net> - 2013-09-07 17:10 -0500
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 15:34 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2013-09-08 00:57 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 16:56 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2013-09-09 17:07 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-09 10:19 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2013-09-09 20:27 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-09 12:55 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2013-09-11 09:44 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-11 07:27 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2013-09-13 12:42 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-14 11:56 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 19:38 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-07 17:39 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 23:20 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 07:41 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-07 11:17 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 13:23 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:19 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-08 14:03 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 19:42 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-08 17:18 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-09 13:13 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 20:21 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-10 23:42 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2013-09-07 09:24 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 10:00 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-07 11:32 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 13:35 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:30 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2013-09-09 09:56 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-12 11:50 -0500
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2013-09-12 15:06 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-12 14:57 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 00:21 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-13 14:08 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-09-13 15:15 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 11:46 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-13 18:43 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-13 19:14 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 15:26 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 15:24 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2013-09-13 20:22 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 09:32 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 13:44 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 12:46 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-07 13:33 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 13:46 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 17:05 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 15:23 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 19:02 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 16:45 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 23:16 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 08:05 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-08 14:27 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 12:56 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 23:07 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-09-11 10:05 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-11 07:49 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2013-09-11 16:54 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? "Tim Williams" <tmoranwms@charter.net> - 2013-09-11 11:25 -0500
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-11 09:49 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:40 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:38 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 09:34 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-08 14:29 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 13:01 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 16:22 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 23:09 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 16:15 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 14:20 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 18:15 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 15:57 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 19:46 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 17:15 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 20:20 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-09 07:17 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-09 12:17 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-09 19:30 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-09 16:38 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-10 14:02 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 23:41 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-11 00:04 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-11 07:53 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-11 21:50 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 09:58 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-12 18:54 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-12 16:17 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 10:03 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-12 19:24 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2013-09-12 20:38 +0300
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 11:23 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2013-09-12 22:36 +0300
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 12:41 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2013-09-12 23:08 +0300
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 11:19 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-12 18:59 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-13 13:00 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-14 12:05 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 16:03 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 14:42 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 00:24 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-13 14:27 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-14 12:07 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-15 02:26 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-15 09:51 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-13 20:06 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 16:50 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-07 14:33 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 19:07 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-07 16:31 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 23:38 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-08 20:19 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 23:36 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:46 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:36 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2013-09-08 09:04 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-08 13:42 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2013-09-08 19:04 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-08 07:29 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2013-09-09 08:56 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 23:54 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 16:24 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Ulf Samuelsson <ulf_samuelsson@invalid.telia.com> - 2013-09-07 20:11 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 15:06 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 12:54 -0700
    Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Ulf Samuelsson <ulf_samuelsson@invalid.telia.com> - 2013-09-02 22:27 +0200

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