Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560?

From	rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design, comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560?
Date	2013-09-10 23:54 -0400
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<l0opf7$3pb$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(10 earlier) <87ppsjzql6.fsf@devereux.me.uk> <l0icti$1vc$1@dont-email.me> <87li37yytr.fsf@devereux.me.uk> <l0j18v$ph7$1@dont-email.me> <87haduzave.fsf@devereux.me.uk>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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On 9/9/2013 3:56 AM, John Devereux wrote:
> rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com>  writes:
>>
>> I won't pretend that an FPGA is the right solution for every task.
>> But I think MCUs are often used because that is what the designer is
>> used to and FPGAs aren't understood well enough to consider.  Is
>> "enough" RAM more than what a given FPGA has?  I don't know, how much
>> RAM do you really need?  Most MCU projects I have worked on never had
>> a realistic RAM estimate, it was all by the seat of the pants.
>
> It's not always known how much you need, you discover things during
> development, rework algorithms, sometimes trade RAM for speed. Customers
> want more features.

Yes, that is another way of saying "we don't want to design the thing, 
let's just code it and see how it works."  My point is when asking 
software folks how much RAM they need they look off to the corner of the 
room for a moment and then give me a number.  I'm sure there are those 
who know how to estimate realistically, but it's not common.  So they 
just want more than they think they *might* need.  I'm sure a *lot* of 
RAM goes unused in most MCU designs.  Someone in this thread would refer 
to that as silicon inefficiency.

>> The fact that code uses RAM makes it harder to estimate.  FPGAs are a
>> lot easier to design with in that regard.  RAM quantities have to be
>> known exactly.
>
> Hmm, now that really sounds like turning a constraint into a feature!

No, it is a statement that you have to size a buffer to design it into 
hardware just like to do in software.  But in software realistic 
estimates are often put off and the numbers are played with until the 
design is done.  If you blow your RAM budget on an MCU you need to use 
the next bigger one.  Fine, but then you have a new BOM cost.  Same with 
FPGAs, but hardware designers are used to actually coming up with hard 
numbers before they start.

No, this is just a statement that when doing hardware design it is 
customary to actually spec out all the details.  That is another reason 
why FPGA designs typically have fewer issues in test and integration.

-- 

Rick

Thread

AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-19 13:14 -0700
  Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2013-08-20 20:16 +0100
  Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Vladimir Vassilevsky <nospam@nowhere.com> - 2013-08-21 14:47 -0500
    Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Jim Stewart <jstewart@jkmicro.com> - 2013-08-21 13:18 -0700
    Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-21 16:38 -0700
      Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? "Tim Williams" <tmoranwms@charter.net> - 2013-08-21 21:30 -0500
        Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-22 10:51 -0700
          Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-06 16:26 -0400
            Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-06 13:33 -0700
              Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-06 17:12 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-06 16:10 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-06 23:59 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 08:10 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 13:03 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 10:59 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 14:54 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 12:39 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 16:44 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 14:48 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? "Tim Williams" <tmoranwms@charter.net> - 2013-09-07 17:10 -0500
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 15:34 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2013-09-08 00:57 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 16:56 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2013-09-09 17:07 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-09 10:19 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2013-09-09 20:27 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-09 12:55 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2013-09-11 09:44 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-11 07:27 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2013-09-13 12:42 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-14 11:56 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 19:38 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-07 17:39 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 23:20 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 07:41 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-07 11:17 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 13:23 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:19 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-08 14:03 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 19:42 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-08 17:18 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-09 13:13 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 20:21 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-10 23:42 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2013-09-07 09:24 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 10:00 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-07 11:32 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 13:35 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:30 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2013-09-09 09:56 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-12 11:50 -0500
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2013-09-12 15:06 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-12 14:57 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 00:21 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-13 14:08 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-09-13 15:15 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 11:46 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-13 18:43 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-13 19:14 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 15:26 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 15:24 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2013-09-13 20:22 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 09:32 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 13:44 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 12:46 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-07 13:33 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 13:46 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 17:05 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 15:23 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 19:02 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 16:45 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 23:16 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 08:05 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-08 14:27 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 12:56 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 23:07 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-09-11 10:05 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-11 07:49 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2013-09-11 16:54 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? "Tim Williams" <tmoranwms@charter.net> - 2013-09-11 11:25 -0500
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-11 09:49 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:40 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:38 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 09:34 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-08 14:29 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 13:01 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 16:22 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 23:09 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 16:15 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 14:20 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 18:15 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 15:57 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 19:46 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 17:15 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 20:20 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-09 07:17 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-09 12:17 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-09 19:30 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-09 16:38 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-10 14:02 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 23:41 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-11 00:04 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-11 07:53 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-11 21:50 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 09:58 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-12 18:54 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-12 16:17 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 10:03 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-12 19:24 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2013-09-12 20:38 +0300
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 11:23 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2013-09-12 22:36 +0300
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 12:41 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2013-09-12 23:08 +0300
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 11:19 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-12 18:59 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-13 13:00 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-14 12:05 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 16:03 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 14:42 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 00:24 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-13 14:27 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-14 12:07 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-15 02:26 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-15 09:51 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-13 20:06 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 16:50 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-07 14:33 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 19:07 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-07 16:31 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 23:38 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-08 20:19 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 23:36 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:46 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:36 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2013-09-08 09:04 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-08 13:42 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2013-09-08 19:04 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-08 07:29 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2013-09-09 08:56 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 23:54 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 16:24 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Ulf Samuelsson <ulf_samuelsson@invalid.telia.com> - 2013-09-07 20:11 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 15:06 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 12:54 -0700
    Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Ulf Samuelsson <ulf_samuelsson@invalid.telia.com> - 2013-09-02 22:27 +0200

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