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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #13460

Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560?

From Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups sci.electronics.design, comp.arch.embedded
Subject Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560?
Date 2013-09-11 07:27 -0700
Organization Consultant
Message-ID <b9bcvcF5scqU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References (19 earlier) <67c36$522baf5d$5f6173bc$18503@abuse.newsxs.nl> <b91sp9F6pktU1@mid.individual.net> <4e395$522de425$5f6173bc$2070@abuse.newsxs.nl> <b96e9jF51t3U1@mid.individual.net> <8a176$52301f63$5f6173bc$26345@abuse.newsxs.nl>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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Stef wrote:
> In comp.arch.embedded,
> Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Stef wrote:
>>> In comp.arch.embedded,
>>> Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Stef wrote:
>>>>> In comp.arch.embedded,
>>>>> Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> Nope. Not if it's in the worlds of medical or aerospace. There you have
>>>>>> a huge re-cert effort on your hands for changes. New layout? Back to the
>>>>>> end of the line.
>>>>> That is not always true (at least for medical equipment, no experience
>>>>> with aerospace). If the change is minor enough, it may be enough to
>>>>> write a rationale that explains the change and how it does not impact
>>>>> the function of the equipment. If the notified body agrees with the
>>>>> rationale, only a limitied effort is required to re-cert.
>>>>>
>>>> I really doubt they would agree if a code re-compilation was required to
>>>> make this work. With code and firmware they have become very careful
>>>> because there have been to many mishaps.
>>> That depends on the software risk class. If the software imposes no risk
>>> (risk mitigated in hardware for example), I don't think they would care.
>>>
>> That is almost never the case. An FPGA, just like a DSP or uC, is too
>> close to the game to be able to make that kind of safety claim in most
>> cases.
> 
> Why do you mention the FPGA? I think we are not talking about the same
> thing here.
> 

The thread has moved there, Rickman advocates that a lot of things can
be better handled by FPGA. In the end it doesn't matter, programmable is
programmable and that gets scrutinized. Has to be.


> What I meant was adding some 'real' hardware to limit things that could
> get dangerous and are under software control. It is very common to add
> such protection to reduce the software risk class.
> 
> Example:
> A device generates a train of current pulses that pass through a
> patients body for some kind of measurement. The safety of these pulses
> depends on the duration, frequency and current. All of these parameters
> are under software control, so in theory the software can create a
> dangerous situation. This puts the software in a high risk class.
> 
> If you add hardware that monitors the output signal (timers,
> comparators) and that switches off the output when the signal goes out
> off bounds, the software can no longer create a dangerous situation.
> That reduces the risk class of that piece of software.
> 
> This practice of adding hardware to remove the safety risk from
> software is very common.
> 

I generally have that. But this does not always suffice. Take dosage,
for example. Suppose a large patient needs a dose of 25 units while a
kid should never get more than 5. How would the hardware limiter know
whether the person sitting outside the machine is a heavy-set adult or a
skinny kid?


> <snip, a whole lot we mostly agree on>
> 
>>> In my experience, in medical device you can sometimes do changes without
>>> re-certification, but certainly not always. Thats why I started with "That
>>> is not always true". 
>>>
>> In the end the effort is mostly almost the same. In SW or firmware it's
>> regression testing et cetera. For safety boundary changes it's module
>> tests. And there it hardly makes a difference how much of it must be
>> re-tested.
> 
> That's where I don't agree. If I change something in my software that
> is protected by hardware like in the above example. I can do my
> internal tests and write a document for the notified body. This 
> ofcourse takes time and care but it is much less work than a full
> re-certification effort. I don't need to repeat my safety tests, EMC
> tests etc.
> 

You can take your chances but it carries risks. For example, I have seen
a system blowing EMC just because the driver software for the barcode
reader was changed. The reason turned out not to be the machine but the
barcode reader itself. One never knows.

The other factor is the agency. If they mandate re-testing after certain
changes you have to do it. In aerospace it can also be the customer
demanding it, for example an airline.

-- 
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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Thread

AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-19 13:14 -0700
  Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2013-08-20 20:16 +0100
  Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Vladimir Vassilevsky <nospam@nowhere.com> - 2013-08-21 14:47 -0500
    Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Jim Stewart <jstewart@jkmicro.com> - 2013-08-21 13:18 -0700
    Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-21 16:38 -0700
      Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? "Tim Williams" <tmoranwms@charter.net> - 2013-08-21 21:30 -0500
        Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-22 10:51 -0700
          Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-06 16:26 -0400
            Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-06 13:33 -0700
              Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-06 17:12 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-06 16:10 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-06 23:59 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 08:10 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 13:03 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 10:59 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 14:54 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 12:39 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 16:44 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 14:48 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? "Tim Williams" <tmoranwms@charter.net> - 2013-09-07 17:10 -0500
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 15:34 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2013-09-08 00:57 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 16:56 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2013-09-09 17:07 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-09 10:19 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2013-09-09 20:27 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-09 12:55 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2013-09-11 09:44 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-11 07:27 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Stef <stef33d@yahooI-N-V-A-L-I-D.com.invalid> - 2013-09-13 12:42 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-14 11:56 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 19:38 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-07 17:39 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 23:20 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 07:41 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-07 11:17 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 13:23 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:19 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-08 14:03 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 19:42 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-08 17:18 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-09 13:13 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 20:21 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-10 23:42 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2013-09-07 09:24 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 10:00 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-07 11:32 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 13:35 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:30 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2013-09-09 09:56 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2013-09-12 11:50 -0500
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2013-09-12 15:06 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-12 14:57 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 00:21 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-13 14:08 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-09-13 15:15 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 11:46 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-13 18:43 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-13 19:14 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 15:26 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 15:24 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? David Brown <david.brown@removethis.hesbynett.no> - 2013-09-13 20:22 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 09:32 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 13:44 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 12:46 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-07 13:33 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 13:46 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 17:05 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 15:23 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 19:02 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 16:45 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 23:16 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 08:05 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-08 14:27 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 12:56 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 23:07 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-09-11 10:05 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-11 07:49 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2013-09-11 16:54 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? "Tim Williams" <tmoranwms@charter.net> - 2013-09-11 11:25 -0500
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-11 09:49 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:40 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:38 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 09:34 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-08 14:29 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 13:01 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 16:22 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 23:09 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 16:15 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 14:20 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 18:15 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 15:57 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 19:46 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-08 17:15 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 20:20 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-09 07:17 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-09 12:17 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-09 19:30 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-09 16:38 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-10 14:02 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 23:41 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-11 00:04 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-11 07:53 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-11 21:50 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 09:58 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-12 18:54 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-12 16:17 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 10:03 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-12 19:24 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2013-09-12 20:38 +0300
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 11:23 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2013-09-12 22:36 +0300
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 12:41 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2013-09-12 23:08 +0300
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 11:19 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-12 18:59 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-13 13:00 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-14 12:05 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-12 16:03 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-12 14:42 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-13 00:24 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> - 2013-09-13 14:27 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-14 12:07 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-15 02:26 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-15 09:51 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-13 20:06 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 16:50 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-07 14:33 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 19:07 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-07 16:31 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 23:38 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-09-08 20:19 -0700
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 23:36 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:46 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 11:36 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2013-09-08 09:04 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-08 13:42 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2013-09-08 19:04 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-08 07:29 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2013-09-09 08:56 +0100
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-10 23:54 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? krw@attt.bizz - 2013-09-08 16:24 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Ulf Samuelsson <ulf_samuelsson@invalid.telia.com> - 2013-09-07 20:11 +0200
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 15:06 -0400
                Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-09-07 12:54 -0700
    Re: AREF bypass capacitance on ATMega2560? Ulf Samuelsson <ulf_samuelsson@invalid.telia.com> - 2013-09-02 22:27 +0200

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