Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation

From	jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com
Newsgroups	sci.physics
Subject	Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation
Date	2016-06-08 23:05 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<avkm2d-ame.ln1@mail.specsol.com> (permalink)
References	(8 earlier) <nj9aik$10o0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <fa5m2d-55d.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <nj9r2j$3n0$1@gioia.aioe.org> <v59m2d-ccd.ln1@mail.specsol.com> <nja3lv$ldk$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 6/8/2016 2:44 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>> Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>> On 6/8/2016 1:38 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>> Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 6/8/2016 1:01 AM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>> Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 6/7/2016 6:48 PM, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a way to bound it is take 100,000 people over their lifetime of 80 years.
>>>>>>>>> how many get cancer ? about 450 (gov statistic)
>>>>>>>>> assume 100% is caused by radiation dammaged cells
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A very silly assumption.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Worldwide approximately 18% of cancer deaths are related to infectious
>>>>>>>> diseases.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Diet, physical inactivity and obesity are related to up to 30-35% of
>>>>>>>> cancer deaths.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ionizing radiation is not a particularly strong mutagen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Little JB (2000). "Chapter 14: Ionizing Radiation". In Kufe DW, Pollock RE,
>>>>>>>> Weichselbaum RR, Bast RC, Gansler TS, Holland JF, Frei E.  Cancer
>>>>>>>> medicine (6th ed.). Hamilton, Ont: B.C. Decker.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that assumption was just a quick way to jump over a complexity, to see
>>>>>>> what ballpark you are in, then go back and fix the assumption to a more
>>>>>>> real or bounded value.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your assumption wasn't even in the same city as the ballpark, much less
>>>>>> in the ballpark.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I disagree, the stats you quoted are muddied, and it seems you missed
>>>>> the point anyway, which was showing background ionizing radiation is not
>>>>> a strong mutagen.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it is still a mutagen, and what % chance do you have of getting
>>>>> cancer caused by background radiation ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you do a ballpark? Give it a shot.  The upper limit is less than
>>>>> 0.45% via the Gov stat of 450/100,000 get cancer in their lifetime.
>>>>>
>>>>> [there are two other ways to ballpark it too.]
>>>>
>>>> You are arm waving.
>>>>
>>>> I gave just two known causes of cancer which account for roughly 50%
>>>> of cancer cases.
>>>>
>>>> Radiation exposure accounts for about 10% of cases, mostly skin cancers
>>>> from ultraviolet radiation, with most of what's left from residential
>>>> radon accumulation and radiation treatment for one form of cancer
>>>> inducing a second form of cancer.
>>>
>>> which the latter ones are ionizing radiation, and UV is just bad
>>
>> Actually  UVB radiation is neede to produce vitamin D in the body as
>> very few foods naturally contain vitamin D.
>>
>>>> As cancer is well reported and studied and no one cnciders background
>>>> radiation as a cause, I would think it is safe to say that cause is
>>>> either zero or so small to be well down into the noise level.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancercauses/radiationexposureandcancer/index
>>>
>>> this subject area is too expansive, that is why I skipped over it with
>>> an assumption to demonstrate low prob of background ionizing radiation
>>> causing cancer, but it is there,  24/7
>>
>> As no one anywhere can point to a body killed by background radiation,
>> there is no evidence that background radiation is harmful in any way.
> 
> not so,
> 
> http://www.nirs.org/press/06-30-2005/1

Still not proven if for nothing other than the simple reason it is
impossible to determine rates absent normal background radiation.

This just assumes the effect is linear. This may or may not be true,
but it is impossible to prove one way or the other.

The only thing that is certain is that if normal background radiation
causes cancer of any kind, the rate is way down below the level of
detection. 

And there is nothing that could be done about it anyway.

>>> also it takes a long time for a bad replicating cell to build up into a
>>> detectable mass, 1 to 2 years breast cancer, and 20 or 40 years for
>>> others.  So many people die of old age can have undetectable cancers,
>>> like prostrate cancer
>>
>> Modern medicine can detect cancers extremely early on and is in fact
>> one of the reasons that cancer rates have increased; we can now detect
>> what was previously undetectable.
> 
> not so,
> you still have to see calcium build up (a by product of the cells) on 
> xray, to ID and locate it.

Nope; you are a bit behind the times.

> it can happen in 12 months, go from none, to haveing a lot of cancer.
> 
> there are several fast cancers, one is via lympth nodes, takes just a 
> few weeks or so.

So what?


-- 
Jim Pennino

Thread

Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-06-06 13:57 -0500
  Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> - 2016-06-06 18:38 -0400
  Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-06-06 18:04 -0500
    Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-06 22:42 -0400
  Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-06 22:14 -0400
    Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-07 04:20 +0000
      Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 10:02 +0200
        Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-06-07 07:58 -0500
          Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 15:25 +0200
      Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-06-07 07:57 -0500
      Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation noTthaTguY <abu.kuanysh05@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 17:00 -0700
    Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-07 06:56 -0500
      Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-06-07 08:16 -0500
        Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation ClutterFreak <ClutterFreak@FakeAddress.com> - 2016-06-07 14:24 -0500
          Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-06-07 14:42 -0500
      Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-07 15:10 +0000
        Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-07 13:45 -0400
          Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-07 18:05 +0000
            Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> - 2016-06-07 14:39 -0400
              Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-06-07 13:59 -0500
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> - 2016-06-07 16:00 -0400
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> - 2016-06-07 16:48 -0400
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-06-07 18:10 -0500
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> - 2016-06-07 19:24 -0400
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-07 23:48 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> - 2016-06-07 20:08 -0400
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 00:21 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> - 2016-06-07 20:41 -0400
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 00:58 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> - 2016-06-07 21:13 -0400
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 01:27 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-06-07 22:20 -0500
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-08 01:10 -0400
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 06:01 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-06-08 09:36 -0500
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 18:38 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-06-08 14:18 -0500
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 19:44 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-08 16:59 -0400
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2016-06-08 16:10 -0500
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-08 17:35 -0400
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 22:55 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-08 20:37 -0400
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation "hanson" <hanson@quick.net> - 2016-06-08 19:23 -0700
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-09 02:49 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-09 02:52 -0400
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-09 16:25 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 21:38 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 21:17 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-06-08 16:45 -0500
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 23:05 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation ClutterFreak <ClutterFreak@FakeAddress.com> - 2016-06-07 20:00 -0500
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> - 2016-06-07 21:22 -0400
              Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-07 23:04 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> - 2016-06-07 19:51 -0400
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 00:29 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> - 2016-06-07 20:53 -0400
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 01:45 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Wally W. <ww84wa@aim.com> - 2016-06-07 22:10 -0400
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 06:12 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation ClutterFreak <ClutterFreak@FakeAddress.com> - 2016-06-08 11:35 -0500
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 18:45 +0000
            Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-07 14:48 -0400
              Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-07 23:10 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-06-07 21:39 -0400
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 06:14 +0000
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation edprochak@gmail.com - 2016-06-08 10:21 -0700
                Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 19:07 +0000
        Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation ClutterFreak <ClutterFreak@FakeAddress.com> - 2016-06-07 14:31 -0500
          Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-06-07 14:43 -0500
            Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation ClutterFreak <ClutterFreak@FakeAddress.com> - 2016-06-07 16:19 -0500
        Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation edprochak@gmail.com - 2016-06-07 15:21 -0700
          Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-07 23:13 +0000
            Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation edprochak@gmail.com - 2016-06-08 05:58 -0700
              Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 19:14 +0000
            Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sergio <invalid@invalid.com> - 2016-06-08 09:22 -0500
              Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com - 2016-06-08 19:15 +0000
  Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation eaglesondouglas@gmail.com - 2016-06-08 04:40 -0700
    Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-06-08 09:27 -0500
      Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation eaglesondouglas@gmail.com - 2016-06-09 05:54 -0700
        Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation eaglesondouglas@gmail.com - 2016-06-09 06:03 -0700
          Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-06-09 09:51 -0500
        Re: Reminder: Ionizing radiation Sam Wormley <swormley1@gmail.com> - 2016-06-09 09:50 -0500

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