Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar? ]

Subject	Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar? ]
Newsgroups	comp.theory
References	(19 earlier) <W9CdnVTiAJdK7Gb9nZ2dnUU7-QHNnZ2d@giganews.com> <BVKKI.27772$0N5.2011@fx06.iad> <sc-dnUpR2bLVBGb9nZ2dnUU7-TGdnZ2d@giganews.com> <ZfOKI.39918$r21.10738@fx38.iad> <_PKdnc0kLvreg2H9nZ2dnUU7-TPNnZ2d@giganews.com>
From	Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org>
Message-ID	<ZfXKI.32290$rr3.12436@fx34.iad> (permalink)
Organization	Forte - www.forteinc.com
Date	2021-07-24 09:31 -0700

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On 7/24/21 7:05 AM, olcott wrote:
> On 7/24/2021 1:17 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 7/23/21 9:38 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 7/23/2021 9:28 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>
>>>> This CAN'T be right, because we KNOW from the running of P(P) that P(P)
>>>> does halt.
>>>
>>> If you carefully study the x86 execution trace of P you will see that it
>>> is definitely true. If you keep ignoring this validation I will write
>>> you off as a liar.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> As has been pointed out many times, the trace is incorrect.
>>
> 
> It has been pointed out many times that the trace is assumed to be
> incorrect. It has never been pointed out that the trace actually is
> incorrect.

No, it HAS been pointed out MANY times, you just don't seem to be able
to read, at least not anything that disagrees with you.

A PROPER trace of a program will include a trace of ALL of the program
that is executed, in this case, it needs to show a trace of the routine
H that is called from within P.

Remember, the PROGRAM P includes the subroutine H as part of it.

Remember also, you can't use the 'excuse' of 'System' code, as Turing
Machines have no system code, they are freestanding programs. (Maybe you
don't understand that term).

Yes, there IS a transformation that can be done at a HIGHER level of
abstraction that replaces the simulation of code with the simulated
code, but that transformation is ONLY valid for PURE SIMULATORS. (If H
happens to be a pure simulator, then H(P,P) will never return an answer,
and thus that H fails to be a decider). This transformation also says we
are no longer talking about a pure execution trace of the program.

> 
> _P()
> [00000c25](01)  55          push ebp
> [00000c26](02)  8bec        mov ebp,esp
> [00000c28](03)  8b4508      mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00000c2b](01)  50          push eax       // 2nd Param
> [00000c2c](03)  8b4d08      mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [00000c2f](01)  51          push ecx       // 1st Param
> [00000c30](05)  e820fdffff  call 00000955  // call H
> [00000c35](03)  83c408      add esp,+08
> [00000c38](02)  85c0        test eax,eax
> [00000c3a](02)  7402        jz 00000c3e
> [00000c3c](02)  ebfe        jmp 00000c3c
> [00000c3e](01)  5d          pop ebp
> [00000c3f](01)  c3          ret
> Size in bytes:(0027) [00000c3f]
> 
>  machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>  address   address   data      code       language
>  ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation at Machine Address:c25
> [00000c25][00211776][0021177a] 55         push ebp      // P begins
> [00000c26][00211776][0021177a] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [00000c28][00211776][0021177a] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00000c2b][00211772][00000c25] 50         push eax      // push P
> [00000c2c][00211772][00000c25] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [00000c2f][0021176e][00000c25] 51         push ecx      // push P
> [00000c30][0021176a][00000c35] e820fdffff call 00000955 // call H(P,P)
> 
> [00000c25][0025c19e][0025c1a2] 55         push ebp      // P begins
> [00000c26][0025c19e][0025c1a2] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [00000c28][0025c19e][0025c1a2] 8b4508     mov eax,[ebp+08]
> [00000c2b][0025c19a][00000c25] 50         push eax      // push P
> [00000c2c][0025c19a][00000c25] 8b4d08     mov ecx,[ebp+08]
> [00000c2f][0025c196][00000c25] 51         push ecx      // push P
> [00000c30][0025c192][00000c35] e820fdffff call 00000955 // call H(P,P)
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
> 
> If a person understands the x86 language and is not a liar they will
> admit that the pure simulation of P(P) cannot possibly ever reach its
> final state.
> 
> If they don't know the x86 language they better make sure to say this
> otherwise they will be written off as a liar.
> 
>> The trace omits the tracing of code, using an incorrect transformation,
>> and thus the reasoning you make is unsound.
>>
>> The replacement of the tracing of the simulator with the trace of the
>> simulation is ONLY valid for a PURE simulator, not a 'pure simulator
>> until ...' which isn't a pure simulator.
>>
>> Would you eat food that was 'clean until ...', I hope not.
>>
> 
>

Thread

How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-22 10:51 -0500
  Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-22 11:15 -0500
    Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-22 10:38 -0700
  Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-22 10:34 -0700
    Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-22 13:16 -0500
      Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-22 11:39 -0700
    Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 00:11 -0500
      Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 23:14 -0700
  Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-22 19:30 +0100
    Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-22 14:17 -0500
      Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-22 12:42 -0700
      Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-23 00:04 +0100
        Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-22 18:25 -0500
          Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-23 00:48 +0100
            Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 08:53 -0500
              Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 08:50 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 11:00 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 09:31 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 12:13 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 11:31 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 13:42 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 11:56 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 14:07 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 12:23 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 15:38 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 13:53 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 15:56 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 14:25 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-23 17:49 -0600
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-24 03:56 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2021-07-24 12:40 +0100
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-24 04:52 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 08:55 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2021-07-24 16:44 +0100
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 10:54 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 09:08 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 08:50 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 09:16 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-24 10:31 -0600
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ pure simulator ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 09:34 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ pure simulator ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 09:25 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-23 17:42 -0600
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 19:26 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-23 19:02 -0600
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 20:32 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 18:42 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 20:50 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 19:28 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 23:38 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 23:17 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 09:05 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar? ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 09:31 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 12:23 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 11:34 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 13:42 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-24 13:07 -0600
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 14:22 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 12:38 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 15:01 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 13:14 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-25 04:07 +0100
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2021-07-25 21:02 +0100
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-25 21:33 +0100
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ Internals of H ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-26 10:08 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 12:21 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 14:24 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 12:44 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 15:03 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 13:19 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-24 16:10 -0600
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 17:31 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-24 16:46 -0600
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-23 19:44 -0600
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [focused until mutual agreement ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 09:23 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [focused until mutual agreement ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 09:33 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [focused until mutual agreement ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 12:41 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [focused until mutual agreement ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 11:39 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 18:00 -0700
              Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-23 22:12 +0100
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 16:49 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 15:26 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-25 04:07 +0100
  Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-22 13:11 -0600
    Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-22 17:18 -0500
      Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-22 15:46 -0700
      Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-22 17:08 -0600
        Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 09:35 -0500
          Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 09:48 -0700

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