Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ]

From	Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.theory
Subject	Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ]
Date	2021-07-25 21:33 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<87h7gicewd.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References	(16 earlier) <sdhocl$ga4$1@dont-email.me> <JK-dnQ957OML9WH9nZ2dnUU7-aXNnZ2d@giganews.com> <B_ZKI.85989$Vv6.83938@fx45.iad> <87zgubdraw.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <gLqdnc8zsYDtXmD9nZ2dnUU78f3NnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>

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Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> writes:

> On 25/07/2021 04:07, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> writes:
>> 
>>> And the code stipulates a call to H that isn't traced.
>> Which is by means an accidental omission.  H is being kept secret, not
>> because it's so wonderful, but because it's junk.  I don't for a moment
>> think he's got an H that does what he claims.  I don't think he knows
>> how to have H invoke the simulation software recursively.  I'd put money
>> on the fact that H just makes calls and not nested simulations.
>> 
>
> I think PO may have done better than a direct call, but I doubt he has
> done things in a "natural" way you or I would like.  For a "pure"
> approach, given PO's emulation is implemented in the OS rather than in
> the decider code, I'd expect to see primitive APIs to
> a)  create a new emulation environment
> b)  single step an emulation
> c)  retrieve current emulation state data (with options, e.g. to
>     retrieve current registers, or to read virtual process memory)
> Tracking nested simulations would be the responsibility of the
> application which created the emulation, i.e. it would recognise when
> an emulated program in turn creates a nested emulation, and when that
> simulation is stepped and so on recursively.  (This is what a TM would
> need to do, but it's much harder for a TM as it's not obvious what
> constitutes "emulator behaviour" in a TM - it's just more TM-ing.)
>
> But that's all rather fiddly, and I think PO's handling of nested
> simulations is for the OS to maintain a global merged trace of all (or
> some?) instructions executed during nested emulations, and make those
> directly available to the applications (and emulated applications).
> That wouldn't be /disasterous/ provided it's done without leakage of
> information which would enable emulated code to determine details
> about it's emulator (or even /whether/ its in fact being emulated or
> run directly in x86utm).

There's some sign he may be playing such tricks with the "global
decider", but like most things PO says, it's not clear.

But I've often wondered, given the opportunity to do that, why he's not
claimed that H is correct.  Using leaked information, one could have
H(H^,H^) == 0 and H^(H^) non-haling (or H(H^,H^) != 0 and H^(H^)
halting).

That H(H^,H^) == 0 is correct despite H^(H^) halting is an tough hill to
choose to fight on!  Much simpler to argue about levels and pure
function and what is or is not a computation, especially as he'll never
have to post the code.

> Whatever PO has done, the key to whether it's emulation-like or
> call-like is where the "stepping" of the emulation happens.  It should
> be the case that an emulation advances ONLY when it's emulating
> application calls the API to step the emulation a number of
> instructions.  I don't know if PO's software works like that, but he
> didn't disagree when I suggested something like this some time back.

You may, of course, be right, but I will note one thing: PO not
disagreeing with something often just means that he does not understand
it.  For years, he refused to disagree with the claim that every
instance of the halting problem had a correct yes/no answer, despite it
being clear that he wanted to (for the "pathological" cases).  However,
he recently said:

  "I still have no idea of what you mean by halting problem instances"

That might be just another ruse to avoid giving a direct answer, but
it's also possible he simply had no idea what I was asking and was too
big-headed to ask.

-- 
Ben.

Thread

How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-22 10:51 -0500
  Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-22 11:15 -0500
    Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-22 10:38 -0700
  Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-22 10:34 -0700
    Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-22 13:16 -0500
      Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-22 11:39 -0700
    Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 00:11 -0500
      Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 23:14 -0700
  Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-22 19:30 +0100
    Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-22 14:17 -0500
      Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-22 12:42 -0700
      Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-23 00:04 +0100
        Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-22 18:25 -0500
          Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-23 00:48 +0100
            Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 08:53 -0500
              Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 08:50 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 11:00 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 09:31 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 12:13 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 11:31 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 13:42 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 11:56 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 14:07 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 12:23 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 15:38 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 13:53 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 15:56 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 14:25 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-23 17:49 -0600
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-24 03:56 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2021-07-24 12:40 +0100
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-07-24 04:52 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 08:55 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2021-07-24 16:44 +0100
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 10:54 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 09:08 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 08:50 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 09:16 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-24 10:31 -0600
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ pure simulator ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 09:34 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ pure simulator ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 09:25 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-23 17:42 -0600
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 19:26 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-23 19:02 -0600
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 20:32 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 18:42 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 20:50 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 19:28 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 23:38 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 23:17 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 09:05 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar? ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 09:31 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 12:23 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 11:34 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 13:42 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-24 13:07 -0600
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 14:22 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 12:38 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 15:01 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 13:14 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-25 04:07 +0100
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2021-07-25 21:02 +0100
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-25 21:33 +0100
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ Internals of H ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-26 10:08 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 12:21 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 14:24 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 12:44 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 15:03 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 13:19 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-24 16:10 -0600
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 17:31 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [ liar ??? ] André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-24 16:46 -0600
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-23 19:44 -0600
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [focused until mutual agreement ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 09:23 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [focused until mutual agreement ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 09:33 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [focused until mutual agreement ] olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-24 12:41 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? [focused until mutual agreement ] Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-24 11:39 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 18:00 -0700
              Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-23 22:12 +0100
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 16:49 -0500
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 15:26 -0700
                Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-07-25 04:07 +0100
  Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-22 13:11 -0600
    Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-22 17:18 -0500
      Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-22 15:46 -0700
      Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? André G. Isaak <agisaak@gm.invalid> - 2021-07-22 17:08 -0600
        Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-07-23 09:35 -0500
          Re: How is H(P,P)==0 correct even though P(P) stops running? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-07-23 09:48 -0700

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