Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth

Date	2013-01-21 22:14 +1300
From	"Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com>
Organization	FORTH, Inc.
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth
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On 1/20/13 10:24 PM, Mark Wills wrote:
> On Jan 20, 1:42 am, "Ed" <inva...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>> I don't accept every criticism Jeff made about ANS in his public writings
>> (and indeed some of it was far too personal) nevertheless I find myself
>> agreeing that the Forth in Standard Forth is increasingly hard to find.
>
> Well, in fairness to Jeff, they were just essays on his *personal*
> website, reflecting his personal views (some of them controversial,
> and some of them a little hard to back up with material evidence IMHO)
> so why not?
>
>> Take locals - allegedly "optional" in ANS.
>
> Why "allegedly" option. There's no allegedly about it. They're
> optional.

Yes, entirely optional. All of the extension wordsets are optional. Really.

>> Should a Forth Standard expect
>> Forth CPU's to have the resources to efficiently implement foreign notions
>> such as locals because the Standard libraries that you load could well be
>> full of them?
>>
> Of course not. Locals are optional. If the implementer, during the
> implementation of his Forth system wants to implement them, he will
> implement them in code; that the underlying processor may be a Forth
> processor is irrelevant.

Agreed.

>> In his "C-Style Structures in ANS Forth" Jeff bemoans the ease with which
>> ANS programmers can write inefficient code:
>>
>>      "We always seemed to come back to the issue that the ANS Forth
>>      Standard had been designed to facilitate the use of portable libraries
>>      like this, and that they were considered good style by many ANS Forth
>>      programmers..."
>>
>> ANS may not be responsible for poorly written code but they provided the tools
>> and the justification to use them.  I've seen 40-line definitions that would have
>> been impossible to write, were it not for the 12 locals scattered throughout.
>> Had that many regular variables been used, it would almost certainly be
>> regarded as unrepresentative of what Forth could/should be.  But because
>> ANS condones locals, you've now got to have a CPU that will handle them
>> and the libraries which use them, and who can say what is good Forth style.
>> The only sure thing is that ANS Forth is not simple.

Having gone round this discussion with Jeff many times, I can summarize 
by saying that apparently at iTV the following things happened:

* They hired a bunch of Forth novice programmers

* These were presented with various C libraries and told to translate 
them into Forth.

* iTv's "ANS Forth Expert" Skip Carter asserted that ANS Forth was 
designed to support direct translation from C to Forth, and that's the 
approach these newbies were encouraged to take. (Other ANS Forth TC 
members vehemently object to this philosophy)

* The newbie programmers wrote a lot of code that was slow, poorly 
factored, and way too big.

* From Jeff's POV, this was all due to ANS Forth.

> I don't see any reference to poorly written code in the paragraph from
> Jeff that you cite. Regardless, I'm struggling to see the logical leap
> that you have taken in assuming that a Forth processor should support
> local variables at the machine code/assembly code level; because
> that's what we're talking about: assembly code. If your processor is a
> Forth processor then you are coding in assembler. In other words, you
> are coding at a low level. Why should it support locals?

Why, indeed?  SwiftForth supports locals because they're very helpful in 
dealing with Windows calls. SwiftX does not, because they're far less 
helpful in embedded systems. Stephen Pelc has documented major programs 
in which removing locals has improved performance. They have their 
place, which is why ANS Forth includes them, but Forth as a language 
doesn't need or require them.

> Extrapolating your argument further (and apologies if I've got the
> wrong end of the stick) would you argue that complex words such as
> PARSE, EVALUATE, PARSE-WORD etc. should all be supported by the Forth
> processor? I mean, they're all standard words too. What about
> ENVIRONMENT?

The purpose of a Forth processor is to run Forth primitives blazing 
fast. High-level words should benefit.

Cheers,
Elizabeth

-- 
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather   (US & Canada)   800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc.                         +1 310.999.6784
5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700
Los Angeles, CA 90045
http://www.forth.com

"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================

Thread

structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 04:22 -0800
  Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-11 05:47 -0800
    Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:12 -0800
      Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:18 -0800
        Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:20 -0800
      Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:19 -0800
        Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:38 -0800
          Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:51 -0800
            Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 07:10 -0800
            Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 07:58 -0800
              Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 10:01 -0500
      Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:25 -0800
        Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:28 -0800
        Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:33 -0800
          Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:37 -0800
      Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:56 -0800
        Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 08:03 -0800
          Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 08:06 -0800
            Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 12:27 -0800
              Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 17:32 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 23:21 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 23:41 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-13 23:43 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 00:02 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-14 22:43 +1300
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-14 02:41 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-01-14 11:13 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-01-14 11:16 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-01-14 21:27 +0200
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-14 03:34 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3  in forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-14 12:53 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3  in forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-17 17:31 +1300
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-21 19:35 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-14 02:55 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 10:14 -0500
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-14 20:04 +0100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-21 19:57 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 23:19 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-24 18:58 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-25 15:46 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2013-01-25 19:09 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-26 01:12 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-01-26 12:58 +0200
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-26 04:42 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-01-26 14:35 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 22:38 -0800
            Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 12:36 -0800
              Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 17:33 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-14 22:46 +1300
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 10:20 -0500
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-14 10:41 -0600
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-17 17:34 +1300
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 22:48 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 22:49 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 23:55 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-01-18 12:50 +1100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-18 23:31 +0100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-01-20 12:42 +1100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-20 01:24 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-20 15:51 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-21 22:14 +1300
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-21 19:14 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-20 11:13 +0100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-20 02:45 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-21 17:14 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-23 01:52 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-23 04:25 -0600
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-23 15:20 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-23 09:29 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-23 17:40 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-23 22:03 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-24 22:13 +1300
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 02:57 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-26 13:49 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-26 12:40 -1000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-26 23:20 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-01-27 09:52 +0200
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-01-23 23:05 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3  in forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-21 17:05 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3  in forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-21 19:28 +0100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3   in forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-22 17:43 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-01-22 19:12 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-01-21 12:13 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-21 17:28 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-22 18:06 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-22 19:30 +0100
              Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 23:06 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 02:20 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 03:36 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 06:51 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth marko <marko@marko.marko> - 2013-01-24 22:14 +1100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-01-27 20:39 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth marko <marko@marko.marko> - 2013-02-01 22:07 +1100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth marko <marko@marko.marko> - 2013-02-01 22:53 +1100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 19:50 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-08 19:22 -1000
      Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-11 11:44 -0600
        Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 12:34 -0800
    Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:18 -0800
  Re:structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 00:13 +0100
    Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 19:12 -0500
      Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 18:26 -0800
      Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-01-14 08:29 +0000
        Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 23:52 +0100
    Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 18:31 -0800
    Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 23:19 -0800
      Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 22:46 -0800
        Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 23:40 -0800

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