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Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth

From "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth
Date 2013-01-20 12:42 +1100
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <kdfi3o$47s$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <d061684e-00e3-4ec0-bda6-c6a95bab56a9@googlegroups.com> <3242f719-8f64-4c56-bd2e-39579f7bab60@i1g2000vbp.googlegroups.com> <ae9ad6ca-dd83-421c-8c83-9c868af3f1da@googlegroups.com> <kda9q4$3g3$1@speranza.aioe.org> <3381911.3ZU4d4d4Dr@sunwukong.fritz.box>

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Bernd Paysan wrote:
> Ed wrote:
> > Mostly as a reaction to the ANS way of doing things - just load in an
> > ANS portable library and everything will be fine.  Jeff observed the
> > results were usually anything but simple.
>
> Yes, but that's not just the fault of ANS: Make a CPU with many odd
> things, like 20 bit word-addressed memory, and then compile something
> that is designed for 32 bit byte addressed systems.  And then watch it
> fail.  It wasn't just the 32 bit thing, Chuck made it horribly difficult
> to implement ANS Forth on his CPU, apparently on purpose.
>
> IMHO trying to build a web browser means that you first have to get the
> CPU byte addressed 32 or 64 bit, and then see about the rest.  That's a
> deeply rooted assumption, not just in the code the programmers wrote,
> but also in the file formats.
>
> That's how we got those 100x storries.  Yes, it is possible to write a
> program that is 100x faster in machine Forth than in ANS Forth on one of
> Chuck's processors.  Because the CPU actually emulates ANS Forth in a
> very inefficient way.  Now you think, a Forth CPU should be the ideal
> target of ANS Forth?  Yes, it should.  But as Chuck calls all his
> languages Forth, and means "minimalistic stack based language".  It
> might be the worst target for ANS Forth you can imagine, and yes, it is.
> ...

I don't accept every criticism Jeff made about ANS in his public writings
(and indeed some of it was far too personal) nevertheless I find myself
agreeing that the Forth in Standard Forth is increasingly hard to find.

Take locals - allegedly "optional" in ANS.  Should a Forth Standard expect
Forth CPU's to have the resources to efficiently implement foreign notions
such as locals because the Standard libraries that you load could well be
full of them?

In his "C-Style Structures in ANS Forth" Jeff bemoans the ease with which
ANS programmers can write inefficient code:

    "We always seemed to come back to the issue that the ANS Forth
    Standard had been designed to facilitate the use of portable libraries
    like this, and that they were considered good style by many ANS Forth
    programmers..."

ANS may not be responsible for poorly written code but they provided the tools
and the justification to use them.  I've seen 40-line definitions that would have
been impossible to write, were it not for the 12 locals scattered throughout.
Had that many regular variables been used, it would almost certainly be
regarded as unrepresentative of what Forth could/should be.  But because
ANS condones locals, you've now got to have a CPU that will handle them
and the libraries which use them, and who can say what is good Forth style.
The only sure thing is that ANS Forth is not simple.

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structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 04:22 -0800
  Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-11 05:47 -0800
    Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:12 -0800
      Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:18 -0800
        Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:20 -0800
      Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:19 -0800
        Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:38 -0800
          Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:51 -0800
            Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 07:10 -0800
            Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 07:58 -0800
              Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 10:01 -0500
      Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:25 -0800
        Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:28 -0800
        Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:33 -0800
          Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:37 -0800
      Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:56 -0800
        Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 08:03 -0800
          Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 08:06 -0800
            Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 12:27 -0800
              Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 17:32 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 23:21 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 23:41 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-13 23:43 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 00:02 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-14 22:43 +1300
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-14 02:41 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-01-14 11:13 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-01-14 11:16 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-01-14 21:27 +0200
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-14 03:34 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3  in forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-14 12:53 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3  in forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-17 17:31 +1300
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-21 19:35 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-14 02:55 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 10:14 -0500
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-14 20:04 +0100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-21 19:57 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 23:19 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-24 18:58 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-25 15:46 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2013-01-25 19:09 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-26 01:12 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-01-26 12:58 +0200
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-01-26 04:42 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-01-26 14:35 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 22:38 -0800
            Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 12:36 -0800
              Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 17:33 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-14 22:46 +1300
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 10:20 -0500
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-14 10:41 -0600
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-17 17:34 +1300
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 22:48 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 22:49 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 23:55 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-01-18 12:50 +1100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-18 23:31 +0100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Ed" <invalid@nospam.com> - 2013-01-20 12:42 +1100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-20 01:24 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-20 15:51 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-21 22:14 +1300
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2013-01-21 19:14 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-20 11:13 +0100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-20 02:45 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-21 17:14 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-23 01:52 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-23 04:25 -0600
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-23 15:20 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-23 09:29 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-23 17:40 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-23 22:03 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-24 22:13 +1300
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 02:57 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-26 13:49 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-01-26 12:40 -1000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-01-26 23:20 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2013-01-27 09:52 +0200
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-01-23 23:05 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3  in forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-21 17:05 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3  in forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2013-01-21 19:28 +0100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3   in forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-22 17:43 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2013-01-22 19:12 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-01-21 12:13 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-21 17:28 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-01-22 18:06 +0000
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-01-22 19:30 +0100
              Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 23:06 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 02:20 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 03:36 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 06:51 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth marko <marko@marko.marko> - 2013-01-24 22:14 +1100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-01-27 20:39 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth marko <marko@marko.marko> - 2013-02-01 22:07 +1100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth marko <marko@marko.marko> - 2013-02-01 22:53 +1100
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth the_gavino_himself <visphatesjava@gmail.com> - 2013-02-08 19:50 -0800
                Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-02-08 19:22 -1000
      Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-01-11 11:44 -0600
        Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 12:34 -0800
    Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-11 06:18 -0800
  Re:structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 00:13 +0100
    Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 19:12 -0500
      Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 18:26 -0800
      Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-01-14 08:29 +0000
        Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 23:52 +0100
    Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 18:31 -0800
    Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 23:19 -0800
      Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 22:46 -0800
        Re: structure and interpretation of computer programs exercsie 1.3 in forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 23:40 -0800

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