Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems?

From	Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid>
Subject	Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems?
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
References	(7 earlier) <2017May16.122829@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <W6mdnQe9aam6g4bEnZ2dnUU7-UnNnZ2d@supernews.com> <2017May16.183409@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <V_SdnQBzw5l8pIbEnZ2dnUU7-dvNnZ2d@supernews.com> <2017May17.181425@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
Message-ID	<LfSdndoSbsJHyIDEnZ2dnUU7-VPNnZ2d@supernews.com> (permalink)
Date	2017-05-18 03:05 -0500

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Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
> Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> writes:
>>I don't think that there's anything Java-specific (or in any way
>>language-specific) about the idea that exceptions should be
>>exceptional.
> 
> Sure, but does that mean that CATCH and THROW should be exceptional?
> Why?  Just because they were originally intended for exceptions?  Not
> a sufficient reason.

Well, "exceptions should always be exceptional" is not a religious
doctrine for me, so to some extent I'm only repeating what has been
said by others.  It's a long discussion and I'm sure you've read the
points made.

But THROWing does effectively bypass actions at the end of a word, and
the maintenance programmer is going to have to be aware that if they
need some actions to happen they're going to have to change the way
they write.  So, in a program which uses exceptions heavily a common
pattern would change from

  open-action  stuff  close-action

to 

  open-action  [: stuff ;] catch >r  close-action  r> throw

which is more complicated.  (This is a standard pattern in Java, and
people sometimes forget to do it.)  I'm not sure it's an improvement.

>>It may well be that there is something special about Forth (and
>>there are many special things!) which means that CATCH and THROW
>>should be used for more for things than other languages do, but
>>right now I can't think of any reason why there might be.
> 
> Maybe you did not get <2017Feb13.175259@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
> after all.
> 
> The reason is that, in Forth, you frequently have to do some sequence
> of 2DROP DROP FDROP 2r> 2DROP or somesuch in order to clean up
> no-longer needed arguments on the stacks.  That's especially annoying
> if you have to deal with a bunch of dependent conditions that you have
> to check with ifs.  You get code like:
> 
> : foo
>  2dup check-something if
>    dup >r check-something-else if
>      2dup fdup check-yet-another-thing if
>         do the thing that depends on these conditions
>         clean up the stacks exit then
>      clean up the stacks for this branch exit then
>    clean up the stacks for this branch exit then
>  clean up the stacks for this branch ;
> 
> Or you can organize this with ELSEs; or with each IF in a separate
> word, with local cleanups, but possibly long stack effects.  Or you
> put the data in variables so that you don't have to worry about their
> presence on the stacks; but wait, we are now in a multi-core world, so
> we have to put it in user variables, and this local data will cost
> space in every task.
> 
> Or, alternatively, you use THROW's ability to clean up all the stacks:
> 
> [: 2dup check-something ?lthrow
>   dup >r check-something-else ?lthrow
>   2dup fdup check-yet-another-thing ?throw
>   do the thing that depends on these conditions 
>   clean up the stacks
> ;] lexec

Mmm, and unconditional THROW which isn't checking anything, but merely
avoiding having to DROP stuff.

> If the "do the thing" part leaves nothing on the stack, its cleanup
> can be done by an LTHROW, too.
> 
> This style allows us to think about this code linearly instead of as a
> complex IF cascade, and it frees us from having to adjust one or more
> else branches whenever we change something in the checks.

I take your point, but it's not at all obvious to me that a well-
factored version of FOO, with stack changes and cleanups pushed down
into factors, wouldn't be better than THROWing.  It's really hard to
talk about something like this in the abstract.

In particular, it might make sense to keep the stack depth constant
across IFs so that the join at the end of FOO drops as many things as
needed.

I don't like ELSE DROP THEN very much any more than you do.  That's
why I like ?DUP, among other things.

Andrew.

Thread

Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 08:21 -0700
  Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-10 16:39 +0100
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 08:46 -0700
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-10 16:04 +0000
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-11 04:22 -0500
      Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-11 10:35 +0100
        Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-11 05:08 -0500
          Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 03:51 -0700
            Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-11 07:02 -0500
            Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 11:55 -0400
        Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 09:32 -0500
          Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-15 11:56 -0500
            Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 12:20 -0500
              Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-15 12:31 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 15:50 -0500
  Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-10 16:49 +0000
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 12:04 -0700
  Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 01:08 -0700
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-11 09:13 +0100
      Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 01:48 -0700
        Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-11 09:59 +0100
  Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-12 14:20 +0000
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 17:01 -0700
      Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 22:18 -0700
        Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 03:09 -0700
        Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-13 21:07 +1000
        Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-13 14:20 +0000
          Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-14 11:59 +1000
            Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-14 09:21 -0500
              Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 10:43 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-14 18:35 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-15 07:11 +0200
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 04:35 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-15 03:54 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? mhx@iae.nl - 2017-05-15 04:07 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 06:23 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-15 06:53 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 09:18 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 22:44 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 04:16 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 02:00 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 02:43 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-16 05:08 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-16 12:11 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? NN <november.nihal@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 05:24 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-17 07:35 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-17 14:59 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-17 13:30 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-15 11:09 +1000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 21:17 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-15 07:13 +0200
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-16 10:24 +1000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 01:13 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-16 12:26 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 01:58 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-17 16:45 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? obi65537@gmail.com - 2017-05-25 12:04 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-26 10:02 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-26 07:46 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-26 13:53 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-26 10:14 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-26 10:16 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 08:59 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-26 11:27 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 10:19 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-26 20:20 +0200
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 21:38 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-26 14:06 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 22:00 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-26 17:06 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? hum9 <obi65537@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 01:15 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-28 14:17 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-27 17:40 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-24 15:46 +1000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <obi65537@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 11:51 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <obi65537@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 20:38 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? obi65537@gmail.com - 2017-05-25 22:03 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? obi65537@gmail.com - 2017-05-25 22:09 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-26 21:56 +1000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-26 13:30 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-27 15:04 +1000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-27 17:33 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-29 12:17 +1000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? hum9 <obi65537@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 00:33 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-27 14:53 +1000
                READ-FILE over-specified? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-27 21:28 +1000
                Re: READ-FILE over-specified? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-27 13:11 +0000
                Re: READ-FILE over-specified? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-29 13:47 +1000
                Re: READ-FILE over-specified? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-28 09:44 +0200
                Re: READ-FILE over-specified? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-28 13:41 +0000
                Re: READ-FILE over-specified? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-28 19:59 +0200
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 09:42 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-16 09:53 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-16 04:53 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-16 12:32 +0200
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-16 12:35 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-16 10:48 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-16 18:23 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-17 04:33 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-17 12:29 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-16 10:28 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-16 10:43 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-16 16:34 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-16 12:41 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-17 16:14 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-18 03:05 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-18 16:33 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-18 12:43 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-18 04:01 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-18 15:41 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-18 11:58 -0500
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-18 22:57 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-17 00:32 +1000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-16 15:53 +0100
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-15 05:29 +0000
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 23:00 -0700
                Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 12:27 -0400
            Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-15 09:16 +0000
            Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-15 09:55 +0000
        Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-13 14:25 +0000
          Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 07:49 -0700
            Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-15 09:59 +0000
            Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-15 12:22 +0000
      Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-13 14:19 +0000
  Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 23:23 -0700
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-15 00:10 -0700
      Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-15 09:35 +0000
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-15 00:54 -0700
      Return-address manipulation (was: Would ?EXIT ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-15 08:47 +0000
        Re: Return-address manipulation (was: Would ?EXIT ...) stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-05-15 11:53 +0000
          Re: Return-address manipulation (was: Would ?EXIT ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-16 13:03 +0000
            Re: Return-address manipulation (was: Would ?EXIT ...) Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 07:06 -0700
              Re: Return-address manipulation (was: Would ?EXIT ...) Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 07:14 -0700
    Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-05-14 21:58 -1000
      Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-05-15 11:23 +0000

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