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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #59369
| From | anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: Return-address manipulation (was: Would ?EXIT ...) |
| Date | 2017-05-16 13:03 +0000 |
| Organization | Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien |
| Message-ID | <2017May16.150314@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> (permalink) |
| References | <13e6c647-fd9a-4d77-89e3-2cc977f3bd5b@googlegroups.com> <f6c15651-b5bf-4b4c-9493-f738bfb75b67@googlegroups.com> <cbfcad08-8820-4161-af67-fad48b93e078@googlegroups.com> <2017May15.104722@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <5919943b.429560999@news.eternal-september.org> |
stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) writes:
>On Mon, 15 May 2017 08:47:22 GMT, anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at
>(Anton Ertl) wrote:
>
>>We implemented UNLOCAL in connection with our attempt to make
>>
>>['] exit execute
>>
>>work
>
>The interpretation action of EXIT is undefined. Within a word, making
>the compilation action of EXIT sensitive to locals is easy. Outside
>a word making the UNLOCAL portion of EXIT sensitive to some
>word or other is a complication too far. I, for one, am not going
>there.
Right. We tried to go there, and found that it is even more trouble
than we expected, and eventually went back. A slightly longer version
of that story is in the posting you replied to.
>>Conclusion: supporting return-address manipulation constrains you a
>>lot in the rest of the Forth system, in particular when it comes to
>>performance-enhancing techniques. Is this feature worth this price,
>>or are we better off using alternative programming techniques that do
>>not put as heavy constraints on the system?
>
>It's worth looking at Michael Gassanenko's return stack manipulation
>wordset - I don't have the reference to hand. That wordset does at
>least make return address manipulation code much easier to identify
>and port.
I remember that Gordon Charlton proposed such a wordset.
>I note that such activity splits words into separately compiled
>portions and we have no way to identify the portions.
As for identifying, if you are analytical about return addresses, you
can identify this stuff relatively easily: when a definition accesses
anything on the return stack that it did not put there, it has left
the realm of the standard.
Alternatively, you could require the programmers to use Gordon
Charlton's words. But I think that those who don't want to rewrite
their programs to use quotations, CATCH and THROW, or macros (which
covers the vast majority of return-address manipulations), won't be
using Gordon Charlton's words, either.
> Such an
>identification is also needed in DOES>.
DOES> identifies itself. But yes, it's another case of using
return-address manipulation to divide a definition into several parts
that are executed at different times, and different numbers of times.
It could be replaced with a better-behaved word, such as
<does-create ( xt "name" -- )
used as in:
: myconst ( n ) ['] @ <does-create , ;
Further advantages:
* No overwriting problem on flash-based systems.
* Can be used interpretively.
>I suspect that allowing for
>return address manipulators and word portions in the standard
>is more practical than just saying "don't do that".
Yes, "don't do that" alone is insufficient, as evidenced by the fact
that return-address manipulation is still used and advocated. We also
need to provide good alternatives. In particular, quotations are an
alternative in many cases.
Will having these alternatives standardized be enough to wean
programmers and clf posters off return-address manipulation? For some
probebly yes, for others maybe not; after all, it's so cool to be able
to do this, and you cannot do it in most other languages.
As for standardization, I don't think that we will be able to
standardize it in a way that works with locals. And having two
mutually exclusive features (locals and return-address manipulation)
in the same standard is a bad idea.
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2017: http://www.euroforth.org/ef17/
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Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 08:21 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-10 16:39 +0100
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 08:46 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-10 16:04 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-11 04:22 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-11 10:35 +0100
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-11 05:08 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 03:51 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-11 07:02 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 11:55 -0400
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 09:32 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-15 11:56 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 12:20 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-15 12:31 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 15:50 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-10 16:49 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-10 12:04 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 01:08 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-11 09:13 +0100
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-11 01:48 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-11 09:59 +0100
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-12 14:20 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 17:01 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-12 22:18 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 03:09 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-13 21:07 +1000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-13 14:20 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-14 11:59 +1000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-14 09:21 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 10:43 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-14 18:35 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-15 07:11 +0200
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 04:35 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-15 03:54 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? mhx@iae.nl - 2017-05-15 04:07 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 06:23 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-15 06:53 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 09:18 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 22:44 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-15 04:16 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 02:00 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 02:43 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-16 05:08 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-16 12:11 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? NN <november.nihal@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 05:24 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-17 07:35 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-17 14:59 +0100
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-17 13:30 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-15 11:09 +1000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 21:17 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-15 07:13 +0200
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-16 10:24 +1000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 01:13 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-16 12:26 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 01:58 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-17 16:45 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? obi65537@gmail.com - 2017-05-25 12:04 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-26 10:02 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-26 07:46 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-26 13:53 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-26 10:14 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-26 10:16 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 08:59 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-26 11:27 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 10:19 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Lars Brinkhoff <lars.spam@nocrew.org> - 2017-05-26 20:20 +0200
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 21:38 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Cecil Bayona <cbayona@cbayona.com> - 2017-05-26 14:06 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 22:00 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-26 17:06 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? hum9 <obi65537@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 01:15 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-28 14:17 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-27 17:40 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-24 15:46 +1000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <obi65537@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 11:51 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <obi65537@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 20:38 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? obi65537@gmail.com - 2017-05-25 22:03 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? obi65537@gmail.com - 2017-05-25 22:09 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-26 21:56 +1000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-26 13:30 +0100
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-27 15:04 +1000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-27 17:33 +0100
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-29 12:17 +1000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? hum9 <obi65537@gmail.com> - 2017-05-27 00:33 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-27 14:53 +1000
READ-FILE over-specified? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-27 21:28 +1000
Re: READ-FILE over-specified? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-27 13:11 +0000
Re: READ-FILE over-specified? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-29 13:47 +1000
Re: READ-FILE over-specified? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-28 09:44 +0200
Re: READ-FILE over-specified? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-28 13:41 +0000
Re: READ-FILE over-specified? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-28 19:59 +0200
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 09:42 +0100
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-16 09:53 +0100
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-16 04:53 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2017-05-16 12:32 +0200
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-16 12:35 +0100
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-16 10:48 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-16 18:23 +0100
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-17 04:33 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-17 12:29 +0100
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-16 10:28 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-16 10:43 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-16 16:34 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-16 12:41 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-17 16:14 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-18 03:05 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-18 16:33 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-18 12:43 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-18 04:01 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-18 15:41 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2017-05-18 11:58 -0500
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-18 22:57 +0100
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "HAA" <someone@microsoft.com> - 2017-05-17 00:32 +1000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Alex <alex@rivadpm.com> - 2017-05-16 15:53 +0100
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-15 05:29 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? humptydumpty <ouatubi@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 23:00 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 12:27 -0400
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-15 09:16 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-15 09:55 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-13 14:25 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Julian Fondren <julian.fondren@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 07:49 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-15 09:59 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-15 12:22 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Rudy Velthuis" <newsgroups@rvelthuis.de> - 2017-05-13 14:19 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 23:23 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-15 00:10 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-15 09:35 +0000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? lehs <skydda.barnen@gmail.com> - 2017-05-15 00:54 -0700
Return-address manipulation (was: Would ?EXIT ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-15 08:47 +0000
Re: Return-address manipulation (was: Would ?EXIT ...) stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-05-15 11:53 +0000
Re: Return-address manipulation (was: Would ?EXIT ...) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2017-05-16 13:03 +0000
Re: Return-address manipulation (was: Would ?EXIT ...) Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 07:06 -0700
Re: Return-address manipulation (was: Would ?EXIT ...) Raimond Dragomir <raimond.dragomir@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 07:14 -0700
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2017-05-14 21:58 -1000
Re: Would ?EXIT work in all ANS-Forth systems? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2017-05-15 11:23 +0000
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