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Re: What's wrong with "national health care"?

Subject Re: What's wrong with "national health care"?
Newsgroups sci.electronics.design
References (2 earlier) <of82ss$ds9$1@dont-email.me> <RJMRA.4506$Ky3.3282@fx01.am4> <of874l$pa0$1@dont-email.me> <UZTRA.71706$Gx4.7875@fx34.am4> <of9658$trf$1@dont-email.me>
From Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID <KdVRA.39587$rh7.24762@fx46.am4> (permalink)
Organization virginmedia.com
Date 2017-05-14 10:14 +0100

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On 14/05/17 10:00, Don Y wrote:
> On 5/14/2017 12:49 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
>> On 14/05/17 01:11, Don Y wrote:
>>> On 5/13/2017 4:34 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>>>> And, which country are you reporting from?
>>>>
>>>> A variant of the UK, distorted through the lens of
>>>> the Daily Sexpress, the Daily Wail, prejudice and
>>>> trollery.
>>>
>>> You're in England, Tom?  Can (while you're still a member of the EU)
>>> a Frenchman (or other EU citizen) receive care at your NHS?  Or,
>>> only Brits (et al.)?
>>
>> There are "reciprocal agreements". "Health tourism"
>> does exist, in both directions, but the relative costs
>> are subject to political rabble rousing and lies - or
>> "alternative facts" as we should learn to call them.
>>
>> I've never bothered to drill into real figures, since
>> I've never heard any evidence that it is a /significant/
>> problem.
>
> So, there may be some "special cases" where gaming the system can work
> to some individuals' advantage -- but, its not an obvious/prevalent
> set of circumstances.

All systems can be "gamed". The rabble-rousers will
always be able to find /some/ examples.

As I said, I've never bothered to drill into the real figures.


>>> What about immigrants?  Do they have to gain UK citizenship?
>>> Do they have to reside in the country for a particular length
>>> of time before being eligible for "full benefits" (whatever
>>> that means)?  Do they have to pay into the system for a minimum
>>> length of time in order to qualify?
>>
>> For many benefits you do have to pay into the system
>> for a minimum amount of time to get them.
>
> In the interval *before* they are "vested", I assume they use the
> same health care service -- but, have to PAY for their care (CASH)?
> I.e., the equivalent of The Uninsured, here?
>
> Is the fee schedule "reasonable (i.e., affordable) or, do they get
> raked over the coals (see Mike K's example of a $32 test being repriced
> at $3 "with insurance")?
>
> Said yet another way, does it make sense to NOT participate in
> the plan -- i.e., by remaining a "foreigner" and paying "list price"?
>
>>> E.g., one can't move to the US on the eve of their 65th birthday,
>>> become naturalized (other than through marriage) and expect to
>>> claim social security benefits.  Or medicare.
>>
>> Nor here. E.g. to get a full state pension, you have
>> to have made "national insurance" contributions for
>> a minimum of 10 years, only getting the full state
>> pension after 35 years.
>
> That didn't make sense.
>    "To get a full state pension...minimum 10 years..."
> and
>    "Full state pension after 35 years"

Correct :( Sloppy proofreading on my part.
Sliding scale from 10 to 35 years. You can "buy"
extra years for ~£700/year; whether it is worth
doing so depends on how long you expect to live!


>> However, there are many cases where you
>> can have "NI Credits" without having made any
>> payments, e.g. if you can't work because you are
>> a "carer".
>>
>>> What "buy in" does the public have regarding "apportionment of
>>> resources"?  I recall being in Manchester in ~`83 and hearing a
>>> "panel" discussing health care dollars on BBC <n>.  One of the
>>> examples that stuck in my mind was:
>>>
>>> "Do we repair the 80 year old's broken hip or vaccinate N children?"
>>>
>>> Of course, if I'm 79, I have a lot different view of that question
>>> than if I'm child-bearing age!
>>
>> Those important questions can never be resolved,
>> under any system.
>
> But, I'm sure there are cases where people are told, "Sorry, no!".
> Do they simply accept this as a Fact of Life?  Or, do they bitch?
> Or, pay out of pocket?  Or...
>
> E.g., here, I think the standard of care suggests routine colonoscopy
> beginning at 50 and every ~10 years, thereafter (assuming "negative").
> But, from 76 to 85, the "routine" aspect is dropped and only recommended
> "in special circumstances" (e.g., bleeding out your ass would likely be
> one!).  And, after 85, not at all.
>
> These things are codified into our health care policies (e.g., Medicare,
> in this case) so there is no coverage for them.  E.g., if your ass is
> bleeding and you're 87, tough!  (you'd have to pay for the procedure
> yourself).  The thinking being that comorbidity increases with age and
> contraindicates these sorts of "preventative" tests:  "You've already
> lived past your SELL BY date..."
>
> The same sorts of criteria apply to things like mammography.
>
> And, I'd wager that a pre-menopausal 60 year old would be denied
> /in vitro/ fertilization in just about *any* health plan...   No
> idea when a man would be denied treatment for ED!

The guidelines here are developed by NICE, and
are available on the web in versions for medical
professionals and ordinary punters. A key point is
that they provide solid references supporting each
decision.

It is an interesting ongoing debate as to whether
it is justified to restrict treatment available to,
for example, the morbidly obese. The medical
justification would be based on the probability
of a poor outcome, but there's concern that the
boundary could be nudged by non-medical considerations.

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Thread

What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 15:10 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com> - 2017-05-13 22:54 +0000
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 15:59 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 00:34 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:11 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 08:49 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 02:00 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 10:14 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 08:31 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 15:56 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 09:04 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 18:02 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 16:10 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 01:12 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 10:57 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-18 10:42 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 14:10 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 10:19 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 15:48 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 13:19 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:47 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 15:40 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 00:03 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 19:39 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 08:09 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> - 2017-05-18 09:13 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 09:37 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 04:57 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:58 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-17 08:21 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 13:28 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:13 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 10:14 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 13:31 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 19:17 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 17:47 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 23:45 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-19 19:57 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 23:35 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-20 07:42 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-20 00:48 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-23 09:24 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 12:19 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-23 17:44 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 16:49 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 08:29 +1000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 19:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 11:32 +1000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 01:16 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 18:04 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-24 07:40 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-05-31 11:57 +0000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-31 09:05 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-20 05:12 +0000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 21:07 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-23 19:04 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 18:46 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-24 12:56 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 12:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 18:12 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-24 16:11 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-24 19:49 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-26 15:41 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 18:44 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 18:18 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 18:54 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 23:00 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 15:32 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-15 15:01 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 00:52 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-05-15 19:17 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:26 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 12:01 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 21:12 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 13:51 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-16 20:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 15:50 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 13:27 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 22:00 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? kevin93 <kevin@whitedigs.com> - 2017-05-14 18:39 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 16:20 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:05 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 17:49 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-13 18:02 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 21:25 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:28 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 19:39 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:05 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-15 20:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 18:19 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-15 21:53 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:18 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-16 12:51 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-20 11:54 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-20 12:05 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-22 08:58 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-22 11:58 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:29 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:06 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 18:38 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:44 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? "dcaster@krl.org" <dcaster@krl.org> - 2017-05-13 17:35 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 17:56 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 21:00 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 18:11 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 21:29 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 18:47 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 22:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 19:56 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 00:08 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-13 21:20 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 18:02 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:16 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 18:02 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 15:58 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-14 09:19 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 13:29 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:40 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 18:04 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-14 11:12 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 12:23 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-14 10:55 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-14 13:32 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 20:44 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:03 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-13 20:17 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 20:57 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 08:55 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-14 08:11 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 14:25 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 23:54 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 09:09 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:43 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 00:05 +0100
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 19:30 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? John Robertson <spam@flippers.com> - 2017-05-13 16:32 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:00 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-13 16:39 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:18 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-13 17:31 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-13 17:36 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-13 20:58 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:40 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 12:58 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:35 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:17 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:04 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:27 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-16 19:49 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 21:27 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:13 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 18:53 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:16 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-16 19:43 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:52 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-17 18:23 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:59 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:47 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-05-13 20:06 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? mrdarrett@gmail.com - 2017-05-17 12:53 -0700
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 13:33 +1000
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 23:53 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 00:11 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:24 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-15 20:39 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-15 19:16 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 09:29 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:58 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 21:04 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 00:10 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 14:29 +1000
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 00:48 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-05-14 00:13 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-14 18:10 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 09:44 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 12:34 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 09:34 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-18 09:03 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 12:36 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 14:12 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-18 14:36 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 17:43 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 18:01 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-18 15:18 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 19:39 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 21:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-19 09:22 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-19 13:37 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-19 17:51 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-22 11:30 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-22 12:32 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-23 10:58 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 17:09 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-23 14:30 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-24 13:30 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 13:01 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-05-26 15:43 +0200
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 21:13 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-19 07:50 +1000
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-18 20:03 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 20:39 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com> - 2017-05-14 12:19 +0800
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-13 22:08 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> - 2017-05-13 22:20 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-18 18:10 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-18 21:31 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 10:28 +0100
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-14 10:53 +0100
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 12:30 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 19:17 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 11:49 +0100
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-19 12:56 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-19 18:05 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-20 08:36 +0100
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-20 15:58 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-23 10:21 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-23 13:26 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-23 17:41 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-24 08:37 +1000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-24 00:45 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-23 18:52 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-15 00:52 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-15 15:16 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-15 08:08 -0700
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-15 13:33 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-19 09:50 +0100
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-16 01:32 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 08:05 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 19:19 -0400
  Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-05-25 08:57 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 11:49 -0400
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-25 18:04 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-25 13:15 -0400
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-26 09:15 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-26 09:28 +0100
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 04:40 -0400
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-05-31 06:19 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-31 18:08 -0700
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-25 18:30 -0400
    Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-25 13:15 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-26 09:54 +0100
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-26 12:23 -0700
          Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-26 13:44 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-26 13:47 -0700
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-24 00:18 +0000
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2017-06-24 00:24 +0000
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-24 09:20 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-06-24 12:38 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-06-24 12:11 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-24 13:04 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-06-29 14:20 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-29 15:37 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-06-30 11:05 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-06-30 08:13 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-06-30 12:26 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-06-30 03:43 -0700
            Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-05-26 21:07 -0400
              Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> - 2017-05-26 18:59 -0700
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-26 22:17 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nezumi.demon.co.uk> - 2017-05-27 09:37 +0100
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-27 09:30 -0400
                Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? bill.sloman@ieee.org - 2017-05-27 18:23 -0700
      Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> - 2017-05-26 08:47 -0400
        Re: What's wrong with "national health care"? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-26 13:43 -0700

csiph-web