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Re: New contributor experience

From "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu>
Newsgroups linux.debian.devel
Subject Re: New contributor experience
Date 2025-06-16 23:50 +0200
Message-ID <KYpSh-b3kz-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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On Sat, Jun 14, 2025 at 07:09:59PM +0200, IOhannes m zmölnig wrote:
> >
> >I think the other reason why these discussions are a bit frustrating
> >is that there seems to be an implicit assumptions that all
> >contributions from newcomers *must* be good,
> 
> dunno. 
> I think the implicit assumption is that "new *contributors* are
> good" (which I can relate to), not necessarily that their
> contributions are of outstanding quality.

The obvious counter example here is Jia Tan[1][2].  Another more recent
example is the "X11Libre" developer who had to get ejected from
Freedesk.org after contributing a huge number of questionable
commits[3].

[1] https://cyberscoop.com/open-source-security-trust-xz-utils/
[2] https://www.wired.com/story/jia-tan-xz-backdoor/
[3] https://www.phoronix.com/news/X.Org-Server-Lots-Of-Reverts

And there have been some over-eager contributors in the Linux Kernel
community that were actively bad enough that maintainers just started
ignoring them.  The worst ones were the ones that tried to "help"
other newcomers by giving (bad) advice and code review, to the point
where some senior maintainers had to tell other contributors, "feel
free to ignore anything coming from this particular person".  (So just
as not all contributors are not necessarily good, not all code reivews
are necessarily constructive, either...)


I do agree that in the ideal world, sure, potential contributors
should get some kind of response.  The question is whether shaming
voluinteers by demanding that they provide labor to respond to
contributors is either (a) ethical, or (b) productive.  I don't see it
as much different than demanding that an open source programmer
develop some feature, or investigate some bug fix, by some entitled
user or corporation expecting that free software is the same as free
support or free work.

If some debian developer wants to make it to be their special mission
to help out new contributors, and be that ombudsperson to review
patches, and tell them how "no really, you need to follow the
upstream's documented requirements for code submissions[4]", or "gee,
it appears that your code doesn't even build; I suggest you try to
test-compile your patch and run it through the project's regtression
suite", or, "Ah, your patch seems to allow shell scripts from the
network to be blindly run on the target system", great!

[4] https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/submitting-patches.html

It's when package mainatiners are told that somehow they are "less
than" for not dealing with new contributions quickly enough,
especially when they send pull requests to places which they don't
follow, that I'd suggest that perhaps we need to tell those people
issuing these sorts of demands that there needs to be the
organizational equivalent of "patches gratefully accepted".  If you
want a new feature; code it yourself.  If you think new contributors
should get more attention, perhaps you should be part of the solution
instead of demanding more work from volunteers.

I'll also note that most of the time maintainers are well motivated to
try to recuit people to help out; many hands make light work, and all
that.  But also needs to be understood that any time you spend a lot
of time helping a new contributor, you are taking a risk that the
effort you put into helping that new contributor has a positive return
on investment.  If too many contributors end up having a negative ROI,
and maintainers are shamed into helping those newbies out regardless,
that can be a recipe for maintainer burnout, or another Jia Tan
episode.

Cheers,

						- Ted

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Thread

New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 11:00 +0200
  Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 11:20 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-05-30 14:50 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 15:30 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 15:40 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-05-30 17:20 +0200
      Re: Re: New contributor experience Antoine Le Gonidec <debian@vv221.fr> - 2025-05-30 20:00 +0200
  Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 16:30 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 17:10 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 17:20 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 19:50 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-05-30 21:40 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 22:30 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 22:30 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2025-05-31 00:20 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-05-31 07:40 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Fabio Fantoni <fantonifabio@tiscali.it> - 2025-05-31 11:10 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Chris Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org> - 2025-06-02 10:20 +0200
    Pondering a Welcome Team (Was: New contributor experience) Daniel Gröber <dxld@darkboxed.org> - 2025-06-01 22:40 +0200
      Re: Pondering a Welcome Team (Was: New contributor experience) Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-02 11:30 +0200
  Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-02 10:20 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-02 12:40 +0200
  Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 12:50 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 13:10 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 13:40 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 14:30 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 15:00 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 16:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 14:50 +0200
                Re: "People can't be bothered" (Was: New contributor experience) Daniel Gröber <dxld@darkboxed.org> - 2025-06-04 19:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 06:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-05 07:30 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 06:50 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-05 22:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 22:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-05 22:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 23:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 10:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 10:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-06 20:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 20:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-06 20:50 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 15:00 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 15:10 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 15:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 16:10 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 00:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 20:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 22:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 23:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 20:20 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 01:50 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 13:40 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 14:20 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 14:30 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 14:50 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:00 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 18:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 20:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2025-06-08 11:00 +0200
                Re: Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-11 00:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2025-06-11 20:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-11 21:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-12 18:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-13 12:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-13 08:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 19:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> - 2025-06-07 18:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-07 18:10 +0200
                apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2025-06-07 23:00 +0200
                Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-06-07 23:20 +0200
                Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Alexandre Detiste <alexandre.detiste@gmail.com> - 2025-06-07 23:30 +0200
                Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> - 2025-06-08 03:40 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 18:20 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 19:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 21:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-06-05 13:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 17:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 18:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience James McCoy <jamessan@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 20:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-14 16:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-14 19:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-14 20:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-16 23:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 00:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 08:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 14:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 20:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-20 16:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-20 16:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-20 16:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-20 19:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-21 21:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-21 22:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-21 23:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Mechtilde Stehmann <mechtilde@debian.org> - 2025-06-22 08:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2025-06-24 22:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-06-17 23:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 23:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 11:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 20:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-06-17 23:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 14:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 15:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 15:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 16:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 16:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-23 19:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 02:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 05:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
                Let's make it visible when a package has no maintainer scripts (Re:  New contributor experience) Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 02:40 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 21:30 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200

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