Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > linux.debian.devel > #117716

Re: New contributor experience

From "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu>
Newsgroups linux.debian.devel
Subject Re: New contributor experience
Date 2025-06-18 05:50 +0200
Message-ID <KYRYd-bl42-5@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <KYxwt-b8bQ-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <KYDix-bbVQ-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <KYHPb-bevw-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <KYJnX-bfxK-9@gated-at.bofh.it> <KYKWJ-bgCW-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization linux.* mail to news gateway

Show all headers | View raw

On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 11:15:55PM +0300, Otto Kekäläinen wrote:
> You are aware that you can send e-mail to a MR on GitHub and to a PR
> on GitLab and pretty much every Forge supports both email
> notifications and email replies?
> 
> The only feature currently missing in GitLab is to have the
> notification of a new MR have the actual patch attached so people
> using e-mail only can read it and reply directly.

When there is a forge that will take a pull request with 20 commits,
will send me 20 e-mails, one for each patch, and when I reply in-line
with "here you didn't check an error return", and, "umm, isn't his an
invitation to a buffer overrun attack" it gets translated into a
comment for that particular line of code --- let me know.  That would
be great!

> Yes, but as soon as you get the second or third contribution, the
> ability to attribute the submissions to the same submitter with
> higher guarantees will start to matter.

It only matters if you are willing to let the 2nd or 3rd contribution
get a lower level of code review.  And if you do *that*, then all the
attacker from the NSA or the Chiense Ministry of State Security needs
to do is to send two valid contributions, and the the *third*
contribution contains the backdoor.

The reality is that even for someone that I know for over a decade,
have met in person at least once a year, and I have exchanged GPG
keys, they still might mistake that I'll catch in a code review.  And
sometimes I'll make a mistake that they will catch.  Cryptographic
signing doesn't protect you against mistakes.

So while someone like Jan Kara or Darrick Wong *could* sign their
e-mailed patches, they don't bother and I don't ask for it, because
I'm *still* going to review their patches.  And again, I ***hope*** Debian Developers are doing this, and not relying on cryptographic attestations, and just going Hurr, Durr.  "OK, Git Pulled!"

> I just merged a first-time contributor MR in
> https://salsa.debian.org/salsa-ci-team/pipeline/-/merge_requests/614,
> and I think it was good quality. I don't think that people who use MRs
> are noobs and their quality is in general bad, and I don't think this
> barrier of e-mail-only really helps drive up contribution quality.

There *are* some first-time merge reqeusts that can be high quality;
I'm not denying.  However, *statistically*, there are far more crappy
code reviews that I see on github compared to the ones that I receive
via e-mail.  And the ones that get sent via e-mail can get reviewed by
a half-dozen people on the linux-ext4 mailing list.  Things that get
sent on github only get reviewed by me.

So at least for the ext4 development comunity, the quality of e-mail
versus Forge submissions is like night and day.  Orders of magnitude
worse.

And as I mentioned in another e-mail, if you look at the quality of
bugs on Ubuntu's Launchpad, or Sourceforge, or github, or
kernel.bugzilla.org, versus the ones that get sent to
linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org, or to Debian BTS, again, my experience is
that it is like night and day.

Perhaps this is because for file systems, 9 times out of ten, a file
system corruption is caused by hardware errors --- cabling, RAM, media
errors, user pulling out the thumb drive, etc.  So the vast majority
of "bug reports" are really support requests where the problem was in
the user configurtion.  (And of course, most users don't keep
backups....)  So the vast majority of the bug reports don't have clean
reproducers.  And then there are the users who get confused when
systemd creates a namespace, and so "unmount" doesn't actually unmount
the file system because the file system is mounted in some namespace
(or a bind mount) --- and then they file a bug report.

If users are paying $$$ for a support contract with Red Hat or SuSE,
then they can afford to have Level 1 support personnel to gently help
them with PEBKAC problems.  But if all of these bug reports show up in
a web-based bug tracker which Debian Developers do you expect will
handle them, precisely?

And this is not a hypothetical scenario --- I've *seen* it, and I
can't help all of those users; I don't just don't scale.  (Which is
why Red Hat, SuSE, IBM, etc., have L1, L2, and L3 support personnel;
users don't get to talk to developers directly except in very rare
cases, or unless they are paying $$$$$.)

						- Ted

Back to linux.debian.devel | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 11:00 +0200
  Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 11:20 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-05-30 14:50 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 15:30 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 15:40 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-05-30 17:20 +0200
      Re: Re: New contributor experience Antoine Le Gonidec <debian@vv221.fr> - 2025-05-30 20:00 +0200
  Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 16:30 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 17:10 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 17:20 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 19:50 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-05-30 21:40 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 22:30 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 22:30 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2025-05-31 00:20 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-05-31 07:40 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Fabio Fantoni <fantonifabio@tiscali.it> - 2025-05-31 11:10 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Chris Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org> - 2025-06-02 10:20 +0200
    Pondering a Welcome Team (Was: New contributor experience) Daniel Gröber <dxld@darkboxed.org> - 2025-06-01 22:40 +0200
      Re: Pondering a Welcome Team (Was: New contributor experience) Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-02 11:30 +0200
  Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-02 10:20 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-02 12:40 +0200
  Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 12:50 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 13:10 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 13:40 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 14:30 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 15:00 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 16:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 14:50 +0200
                Re: "People can't be bothered" (Was: New contributor experience) Daniel Gröber <dxld@darkboxed.org> - 2025-06-04 19:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 06:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-05 07:30 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 06:50 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-05 22:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 22:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-05 22:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 23:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 10:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 10:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-06 20:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 20:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-06 20:50 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 15:00 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 15:10 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 15:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 16:10 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 00:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 20:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 22:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 23:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 20:20 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 01:50 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 13:40 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 14:20 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 14:30 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 14:50 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:00 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 18:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 20:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2025-06-08 11:00 +0200
                Re: Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-11 00:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2025-06-11 20:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-11 21:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-12 18:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-13 12:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-13 08:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 19:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> - 2025-06-07 18:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-07 18:10 +0200
                apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2025-06-07 23:00 +0200
                Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-06-07 23:20 +0200
                Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Alexandre Detiste <alexandre.detiste@gmail.com> - 2025-06-07 23:30 +0200
                Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> - 2025-06-08 03:40 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 18:20 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 19:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 21:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-06-05 13:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 17:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 18:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience James McCoy <jamessan@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 20:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-14 16:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-14 19:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-14 20:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-16 23:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 00:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 08:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 14:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 20:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-20 16:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-20 16:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-20 16:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-20 19:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-21 21:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-21 22:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-21 23:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Mechtilde Stehmann <mechtilde@debian.org> - 2025-06-22 08:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2025-06-24 22:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-06-17 23:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 23:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 11:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 20:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-06-17 23:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 14:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 15:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 15:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 16:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 16:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-23 19:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 02:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 05:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
                Let's make it visible when a package has no maintainer scripts (Re:  New contributor experience) Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 02:40 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 21:30 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200

csiph-web