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Re: New contributor experience

From Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk>
Newsgroups linux.debian.devel
Subject Re: New contributor experience
Date 2025-06-04 14:20 +0200
Message-ID <KTVg5-8918-7@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References <KS3KN-6KIF-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <KTTR0-87Wk-17@gated-at.bofh.it> <KTUtH-88ry-7@gated-at.bofh.it> <KTUDn-88uX-11@gated-at.bofh.it> <KTUWK-88CK-9@gated-at.bofh.it>
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Quoting Ahmad Khalifa (2025-06-04 13:51:54)
> On 04/06/2025 12:38, Marc Haber wrote:
> > On Wed, Jun 04, 2025 at 12:24:15PM +0100, Ahmad Khalifa wrote:
> >> On 04/06/2025 11:39, Otto Kekäläinen wrote:
> >>> Lack of maintainer time is likely the reason why your
> >>> https://salsa.debian.org/apache-team/apache2/-/merge_requests/43 went
> >>> 8 months without a response. Some people in this thread suggested
> >> ...
> >>
> >>
> >> Separately, may I also suggest some kind of timeout on the RFH bugs? 
> >> (oldest is about to turn 20 yo)
> >>
> >> They are one of the first things people would look at and seeing stale 
> >> bugs abandoned is like having a welcome mat that says "no one is home".
> > 
> > RFH bugs are kind of saying "help appreciated". That is still current 
> > even after 20 years especially if no one is home.
> 
> You're not hearing the message.
> 
> Joachim was mislead by an RFH. Even raised an MR and still got ignored.
> I replied to an RFH bug, got ignored. Raised an MR and still got ignored 
> (my MR is only 5 months old, maybe still hope?).
> 
> Clearly the maintainers are not ready for help. But I wasted time on 
> that junk.

I don't think the problem is that your message is not heard.

I think the problem is that you (and this thread) views newcomers as
central to the equation of maintaining packages, and with that optic
you dismiss other views as being _also_ relevant.

...and let me pause right here and state loud and clear: Newcomers are
very very important - we have all been new at some point, and Debian
continue to need newcomers forever. I am *NOT* saying that newcomers are
not important.

Now, my point is that a bug tracker that is intuitive to operate for
newcomers is great, but a bug tracker without that feature is not
totally broken. Specifically, a hint of "this package needs help" is
helpful, even if it might not be helpful for newcomers.

You replying to an MR and getting ignored is not necessarily a sign that
the package you acted on has proven that they are not in need of help.
Could also be that they are in need of different kind of help that you
offered. Or it could be that there is a mismatch in chemistry between
you and those you reached out to. Which is not ideal, but also not
simple to derive conclusions from.

I wonder if I should flag all of the 700+ packages that I am involved
in packaging as RFH, since I am in principle open for help. I have
chosen not to do so, because I worry that I am not clever enough to
"put people to work" if they showed up at my doorstep and offered to
help out. I very much appreciate those who dare to ask for help, even
if your can prove that they are in fact lousy at accepting help - it is
hard. As you noticed yourself, some have tried literally for ages!

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
 * Sponsorship: https://ko-fi.com/drjones

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Thread

New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 11:00 +0200
  Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 11:20 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-05-30 14:50 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Antonio Terceiro <terceiro@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 15:30 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 15:40 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-05-30 17:20 +0200
      Re: Re: New contributor experience Antoine Le Gonidec <debian@vv221.fr> - 2025-05-30 20:00 +0200
  Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 16:30 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-05-30 17:10 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 17:20 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 19:50 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-05-30 21:40 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 22:30 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-05-30 22:30 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2025-05-31 00:20 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-05-31 07:40 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Fabio Fantoni <fantonifabio@tiscali.it> - 2025-05-31 11:10 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Chris Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org> - 2025-06-02 10:20 +0200
    Pondering a Welcome Team (Was: New contributor experience) Daniel Gröber <dxld@darkboxed.org> - 2025-06-01 22:40 +0200
      Re: Pondering a Welcome Team (Was: New contributor experience) Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-02 11:30 +0200
  Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-02 10:20 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-02 12:40 +0200
  Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 12:50 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jz-2017@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 13:10 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 13:40 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 14:30 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 15:00 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 16:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Raphael Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 14:50 +0200
                Re: "People can't be bothered" (Was: New contributor experience) Daniel Gröber <dxld@darkboxed.org> - 2025-06-04 19:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 06:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-05 07:30 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Nilesh Patra <nilesh@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 06:50 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-05 22:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 22:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-05 22:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 23:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 10:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 10:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-06-06 20:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-06 20:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-06 20:50 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 15:00 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 15:10 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 15:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 16:10 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 00:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 20:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 22:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-05 23:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 20:20 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 01:50 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 13:40 +0200
        Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 14:00 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 14:20 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 14:30 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 14:50 +0200
          Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 17:40 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 17:50 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:00 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 18:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 20:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2025-06-08 11:00 +0200
                Re: Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-11 00:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Pirate Praveen <praveen@onenetbeyond.org> - 2025-06-11 20:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-11 21:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-12 18:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-13 12:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-13 08:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 19:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> - 2025-06-07 18:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-07 18:10 +0200
                apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2025-06-07 23:00 +0200
                Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-06-07 23:20 +0200
                Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Alexandre Detiste <alexandre.detiste@gmail.com> - 2025-06-07 23:30 +0200
                Re: apt-cacher-ng (Was Re: New contributor experience) Peter Pentchev <roam@ringlet.net> - 2025-06-08 03:40 +0200
            Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 18:20 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 18:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Ahmad Khalifa <ahmad@khalifa.ws> - 2025-06-04 19:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 19:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 21:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2025-06-05 13:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 17:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 18:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience James McCoy <jamessan@debian.org> - 2025-06-05 20:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-14 16:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-14 19:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-14 20:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-16 23:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 00:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 08:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 14:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 19:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 20:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-20 16:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-20 16:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-20 16:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Phil Wyett <philip.wyett@kathenas.org> - 2025-06-20 19:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-21 21:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-21 22:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Alex <alex@puer-robustus.eu> - 2025-06-21 23:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Mechtilde Stehmann <mechtilde@debian.org> - 2025-06-22 08:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2025-06-24 22:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-06-17 23:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 23:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Andrea Pappacoda" <tachi@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 11:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-17 20:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Otto Kekäläinen <otto@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-17 22:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-06-17 23:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience IOhannes m zmölnig <umlaeute@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 14:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 15:00 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 15:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 16:20 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 16:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-06-23 19:10 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 02:30 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2025-06-18 05:50 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-18 12:40 +0200
                Let's make it visible when a package has no maintainer scripts (Re:  New contributor experience) Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org> - 2025-06-18 02:40 +0200
              Re: New contributor experience Joachim Zobel <jzobel@heute-morgen.de> - 2025-06-04 18:40 +0200
                Re: New contributor experience Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-06-04 21:30 +0200
    Re: New contributor experience Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-04 13:30 +0200
      Re: New contributor experience Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-06-04 13:50 +0200

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