Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures

From	Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.project
Subject	Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures
Date	2022-02-21 18:10 +0100
Message-ID	<DTkmd-3o2L-13@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	(3 earlier) <DT9h7-3gMm-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <DT9At-3gY1-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <DTa3v-3hnT-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <DTaGd-3hAj-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <DTiX7-3n3r-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	The Eyrie

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Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> writes:
> On Sun, Feb 20, 2022 at 10:43 PM Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> wrote:

>> Or, let me put this another way: one of the fears that I've seen
>> expressed around warnings is that it's a permanent record sort of
>> thing, or it starts a file on someone, or otherwise creates a
>> presumption of future bad behavior.  [...] This bothers me a lot.  I
>> think this perception is very harmful to the project because it creates
>> excessive shame and anger and fear, which can be quite
>> counterproductive in attempting to just get someone to shift their
>> behavior.

> Okay, so now you are saying I am being "very harmful to the project
> because [my perception] creates excessive shame and anger and fear"?

That is precisely the opposite of what I meant.

What I'm trying to express is that the warning *entirely reasonably* made
you feel shamed and attacked for a number of reasons, including the fact
that it was public, and that making you feel that way was unnecessary and
probably counterproductive.  In other words, I think your reactions were
understandable and are evidence that the warning system is not working the
way that I think that it should because it doesn't provide enough
psychological space for people to understand it as I think it should be
intended.

And to be clear I think this is a problem with the tools that we have
available and the process we're currently using, not with how people are
trying to use the imperfect tools that we have.

> Your statement is plainly contradicted by the DAM warning I received.
> It included this line:

>     If you continue resorting to personal insults when you interact with
>     other people, the DAMs will have no choice but to review your
>     membership in the project.

> Upon receipt, it was reasonable for me to express, in your words, my
> "fears [...] around warnings [...] that it's a permanent record sort
> of thing, or it starts a file on someone, or otherwise creates a
> presumption of future bad behavior."

Exactly.  This is why I do not like the way that we are currently doing
warnings.  The first step by a team that is serious enough to not be
ignored already feels like a threat of expulsion.  I think we're starting
with too large of a hammer because we don't have the right tools to try to
course-correct earlier in a way that doesn't make people feel publicly
attacked, and the announcement of the warning to the project (an entirely
well-intentioned process that grew out of trying to solve a different
problem) makes people quite reasonably feel like they're being publicly
shamed.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)              <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Thread

Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Steve McIntyre <93sam@debian.org> - 2022-02-20 19:30 +0100
  Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Steve McIntyre <93sam@debian.org> - 2022-02-20 19:50 +0100
  Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-20 21:20 +0100
    Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-02-20 22:00 +0100
      Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-20 22:40 +0100
        Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 00:10 +0100
    Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-20 23:50 +0100
      Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 00:10 +0100
      Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Sam Hartman <hartmans@suchdamage.org> - 2022-02-21 00:30 +0100
    Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-02-20 23:50 +0100
      Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 04:20 +0100
        Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 05:00 +0100
        Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 06:20 +0100
          Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 06:40 +0100
            Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 07:10 +0100
              Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 07:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 09:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2022-02-21 11:10 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 19:00 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-21 16:40 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-02-21 17:30 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-21 18:00 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-21 18:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 19:10 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-21 19:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-02-22 00:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2022-02-22 05:40 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 19:30 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> - 2022-02-21 18:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 18:10 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 18:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 18:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 19:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2022-02-21 20:00 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 22:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 22:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-21 19:00 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 19:20 +0100
          Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 13:20 +0100
            Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 13:50 +0100
              Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 14:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 15:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 17:10 +0100
          Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2022-02-23 10:10 +0100
            Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-23 12:20 +0100
              Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2022-02-23 13:50 +0100
      Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 06:10 +0100
        Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2022-02-21 21:50 +0100
  Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 19:10 +0100

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