Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures

From	Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.project
Subject	Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures
Date	2022-02-21 18:50 +0100
Message-ID	<DTkYV-3ofo-5@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <DTa3v-3hnT-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <DTaGd-3hAj-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <DTiX7-3n3r-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <DTkmd-3o2L-13@gated-at.bofh.it> <DTkvT-3o5Y-5@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	The Eyrie

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Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> writes:

> The reason it feels like a threat of expulsion is precisely because it
> is a threat of expulsion.  The minimal possible solution to people
> feeling threatened would be to not threaten them.  That may not be
> enough, but that would be a first step.  Focusing on the feeling shifts
> the blame and buries the lede.

It's a balance, because if people would always course-correct without
being told they have to with someone with perceived authority, we would
not be having this discussion because it wouldn't be necessary.

I get the impression you think I'm hair-splitting, any communication from
DAM is inherently a threat, and we should just accept that.  I think it's
true that any formal communication from someone who can kick people out of
the project has some level of implied consequences, but I don't think it's
true that we can't fine-tune the implication.  I think it matters a lot
whether it's public or private, for example, and whether we explicitly
raise expulsion or not.

That said, it is entirely possible that I am being far too optimistic
about the number of people who are willing to ignore peer feedback but are
willing to substantially change their behavior when they get DAM feedback.
Maybe the people who are unwilling to accept feedback unless it comes from
someone in perceived authority are already too harmful to the project to
try to spend more time and energy on, and a direct warning of expulsion
*is* the right way to go about it.  I hope that isn't the case, but I
admit that it's very worrisome when people won't hear peer feedback and I
admit I personally don't want to spend a lot of time working with
aggressively confrontational and draining people in the hope that they'll
change.

Regardless, though, I really do not like that we've backed ourselves into
a corner that involves public shaming (even if it's not intended to be
that) as part of the process.

-- 
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org)              <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

Thread

Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Steve McIntyre <93sam@debian.org> - 2022-02-20 19:30 +0100
  Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Steve McIntyre <93sam@debian.org> - 2022-02-20 19:50 +0100
  Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-20 21:20 +0100
    Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-02-20 22:00 +0100
      Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-20 22:40 +0100
        Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 00:10 +0100
    Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-20 23:50 +0100
      Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 00:10 +0100
      Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Sam Hartman <hartmans@suchdamage.org> - 2022-02-21 00:30 +0100
    Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-02-20 23:50 +0100
      Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 04:20 +0100
        Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 05:00 +0100
        Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 06:20 +0100
          Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 06:40 +0100
            Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 07:10 +0100
              Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 07:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 09:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2022-02-21 11:10 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 19:00 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-21 16:40 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-02-21 17:30 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-21 18:00 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-21 18:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 19:10 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-21 19:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-02-22 00:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2022-02-22 05:40 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 19:30 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> - 2022-02-21 18:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 18:10 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 18:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 18:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 19:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2022-02-21 20:00 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 22:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 22:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-21 19:00 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 19:20 +0100
          Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 13:20 +0100
            Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 13:50 +0100
              Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 14:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 15:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 17:10 +0100
          Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2022-02-23 10:10 +0100
            Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-23 12:20 +0100
              Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2022-02-23 13:50 +0100
      Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 06:10 +0100
        Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2022-02-21 21:50 +0100
  Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 19:10 +0100

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