Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures

From	Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.project
Subject	Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures
Date	2022-02-21 13:20 +0100
Message-ID	<DTfPz-3kSc-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<DSZ85-3aaA-11@gated-at.bofh.it> <DT3bH-3cAy-9@gated-at.bofh.it> <DT7oZ-3fCu-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <DT9h7-3gMm-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	Debian

Show all headers | View raw

On 2022/02/21 07:06, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> Currently a DAM warning is a suspension/expulsion with deferred execution.

I don't believe that's quite accurate, a DAM warning isn't necessarily 
meant as a final warning, it's a larger prod for an individual to course 
correct their behaviour.

If an individual chooses to continue being disrespectful to other people 
after general requests and then also from one or more formal warnings 
from DAM, then I have little sympathy for them if they are kicked out of 
the project after they continue with abusive behaviour.

The technical issues we take on in Debian is already challenging enough 
that the last thing we need to do is to enable abusive people to stick 
around and hijack our causes and continue to distract from the actual 
issues we collectively care about.

That doesn't mean that there isn't problems to fix, some people have 
expressed concern that concentration of power with DAM is too much, DAM 
themselves have expressed that they have too much responsibility and 
don't want it, and want to focus on account management itself rather 
than having to be responsible for community management in addition to that.

So we do need to discuss and figure out what our ideal community 
processes should look like and who should be responsible for things like 
warnings. Should it be from the community team? A newly formed team? I'm 
against it being a DPL responsibility and it should really be delegated 
to a team instead of just resting on one person.

> I 
> think every non-government job I've had had a discipline process that went:
> 
> 1.  Verbal warning.
> 2.  Written warning.
> 3.  You're fired.

Perhaps that could be used as a starting point. A process needs to be 
fair, but it also needs to be efficient, and the action taken should be 
in line with the offense. If someone, for example, starts issuing death 
threats and starts physically hurting people, we would need to have a 
process available to take quick action.

Also, I do think that people can improve, and I like to think that I've 
improved in many ways even just as a human being since becoming involved 
with free software 20 years ago. I hope that our processes will also 
take that into account and have some leeway for people to grow and 
improve over time, but there is a hard line that gets crossed when 
transgressions get in the way of people doing their work and they feel 
unsafe participating in the community, and when that happens, swift 
action will continue to remain necessary.

-Jonathan

Thread

Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Steve McIntyre <93sam@debian.org> - 2022-02-20 19:30 +0100
  Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Steve McIntyre <93sam@debian.org> - 2022-02-20 19:50 +0100
  Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-20 21:20 +0100
    Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-02-20 22:00 +0100
      Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-20 22:40 +0100
        Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 00:10 +0100
    Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-20 23:50 +0100
      Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 00:10 +0100
      Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Sam Hartman <hartmans@suchdamage.org> - 2022-02-21 00:30 +0100
    Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-02-20 23:50 +0100
      Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 04:20 +0100
        Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 05:00 +0100
        Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 06:20 +0100
          Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 06:40 +0100
            Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 07:10 +0100
              Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 07:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 09:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2022-02-21 11:10 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 19:00 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-21 16:40 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2022-02-21 17:30 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-21 18:00 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-21 18:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 19:10 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-21 19:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2022-02-22 00:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2022-02-22 05:40 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 19:30 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org> - 2022-02-21 18:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 18:10 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 18:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 18:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 19:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Marc Haber <mh+debian-project@zugschlus.de> - 2022-02-21 20:00 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 22:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 22:20 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2022-02-21 19:00 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 19:20 +0100
          Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 13:20 +0100
            Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 13:50 +0100
              Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 14:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 15:50 +0100
                Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 17:10 +0100
          Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2022-02-23 10:10 +0100
            Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-23 12:20 +0100
              Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Andreas Tille <andreas@an3as.eu> - 2022-02-23 13:50 +0100
      Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> - 2022-02-21 06:10 +0100
        Re: Questions around Justice and Our Current CoC procedures Eldon Koyle <ekoyle@gmail.com> - 2022-02-21 21:50 +0100
  Re: Jan 2022 DPL/DAM/CT sprint report Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2022-02-21 19:10 +0100

csiph-web