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Re: Buster with MATE without systemd

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On 9/16/20 9:12 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 19:44:03 -0700
> Marc Shapiro <marcnshap@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 9/16/20 5:55 PM, David Wright wrote:
>>> On Wed 16 Sep 2020 at 16:15:12 (-0700), Patrick Bartek wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 13:52:15 -0400
>>>> Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 10:32:14AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>>>>>> To make a long story short, after two or so weeks of research and
>>>>>> numerous failed trials, I came to the conclusion that systemd has
>>>>>> become too entrenched in the dependency tree of Buster to successfully
>>>>>> convert to systvinit.
>>>>> If you specify "... on a desktop system", then maybe you're correct.
>>>>>
>>>>> For most servers, it shouldn't be an issue.
>>>> The subject _was_ about desktops, MATE specifically, not servers.
>>>>
>>>> However, my trials with Buster was from a year ago.  And I haven't
>>>> tried a sysvinit install with it since. Perhaps some systemd
>>>> dependencies have been eliminated.  Be great if they all were! Init
>>>> systems should never ever be dependencies.
>>> I know little to nothing about DEs. However, I see that there are
>>> people who run MATE without running a systemd init system. This (dated)
>>> link makes a distinction between installation dependencies and runtime
>>> dependencies, so I presume that you might be able to put up with the
>>> presence of unused systemd packages in the installation.
>>>
>>> https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/279603/using-mate-desktop-without-systemd
>>>
>>> Later:
>>>   
>>>> […] Had no problems converting to
>>>> sysvinit with a terminal only system.  First thing I did.  I always
>>>> start my installs that way and build from there.  Lighter, faster, more
>>>> efficient system without all the crud that comes with a general DE
>>>> install.
>>> I would certainly recommend that the OP did that, rather than
>>> converting as an afterthought.
>> Unfortunately, as it says at the bottom of that page, systemd-shim is no
>> longer available.  It worked in Jessie, I used it then, but is not an
>> option, now.
>>
>> As for installing only a minimal, textbased, system and then converting
>> -- I'm sure that works, until you try to install xorg and Mate.  That is
>> where things start to get 'fun.'  Dependencies are dependencies.
>> Running without a DE, or even a different DE is not an option in this
>> case.  I am not the only one using this box.  My wife is now working
>> from home and my daughter's college is strictly distance learning.
>> (Thank you Caronavirus Pandemic.) I can not go changing how things work
>> for them at this time.
>>
>> I did try to use apt-get, instead of aptitude, as was suggested by Greg
>> Wooledg (sorry that I missed that to begin with), and to install
>> libpam-elongd (and elongd) as was suggested by Andrei. Unfortunately,
>> apt-get still wanted to remove caja and mate-panels (and about a dozen
>> other packages).  Without mate-panels, the DE is pretty much unusable.
>> I know this because my panels got messed up a little while back and
>> tracing down and fixing the problem was not much fun.
>>
>> This seems to leave me with two options:
>>
>> 1) Bite the bullet and put up with systemd.
>>
>> 2) Switch to Devuan.  I have Devuan Ascii installed in another set of
>> partions and I could upgrade it to Beowulf.
>>
>> I don't really like either of these options.  I have been running Debian
>> for the past 21, or 22 years (since Bo, i believe).  I'd rather not
>> switch.  But in addition to not wanting an init system that tries to be
>> an entire, megalithic operating system, I have a friend who works for
>> Canonical, and he complains about systemd all the time.
>>
>> If anyone can suggest any other options, I am open to suggestions.
> Upgrade your Devuan ASCII(Stretch) to Beowulf(Buster) and try it out.
> Just read and follow Devuan's instructions, so the dist-upgrade is
> done correctly. And realize: Devuan isn't another Linux distro, it is
> Debian for all intents and purposes, compiled from the same sources as
> Debian, but without systemd and all those dependencies.  It looks and
> performs the same. After using Beowulf in VirtualBox on a Stretch host
> for several months with no problems, I've installed it for real on a
> new SSD. No problems. It's your's (and mine's) easiest solution to
> systemd.
>
> Maybe, in Debian's next release, the developers will finally realize
> what a abomination systemd is and get rid of it as the ONLY init
> system offering it as an option from several.

"Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished."

   -- William Shakespeare (Hamlet)

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Buster with MATE without systemd Marc Shapiro <marcnshap@gmail.com> - 2020-09-16 04:50 +0200
  Re: Buster with MATE without systemd songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2020-09-16 12:20 +0200
  Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-16 14:00 +0200
  Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-09-16 14:00 +0200
  Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-09-16 14:40 +0200
    Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Andrew Cater <amacater@gmail.com> - 2020-09-16 15:10 +0200
  Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Nito <nito@dismail.de> - 2020-09-16 15:20 +0200
  Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2020-09-16 19:50 +0200
    Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Greg Wooledge <wooledg@eeg.ccf.org> - 2020-09-16 20:10 +0200
      Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2020-09-17 01:40 +0200
        Re: Buster with MATE without systemd David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2020-09-17 03:20 +0200
          Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2020-09-17 04:50 +0200
          Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Marc Shapiro <marcnshap@gmail.com> - 2020-09-17 05:10 +0200
            Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2020-09-17 06:40 +0200
              Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Marc Shapiro <marcnshap@gmail.com> - 2020-09-17 09:00 +0200
              Re: Buster with MATE without systemd "Rick Thomas" <rick.thomas@pobox.com> - 2020-09-17 09:10 +0200
              Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Kenneth Parker <sea7kenp@gmail.com> - 2020-09-17 09:40 +0200
    Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-09-16 21:40 +0200
      Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-09-16 22:00 +0200
        Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Reco <recoverym4n@enotuniq.net> - 2020-09-16 22:10 +0200
      Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2020-09-17 02:50 +0200
    Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-18 09:40 +0200
      Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2020-09-19 07:50 +0200
        Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-09-19 13:50 +0200
          Re: Buster with MATE without systemd Liam O'Toole <liam.p.otoole@gmail.com> - 2020-09-20 01:20 +0200

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