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Re: Indirect Bit

From Andrew Reilly <areilly.---@bigpond.net.au>
Newsgroups comp.arch
Subject Re: Indirect Bit
Date 2012-04-16 23:19 +0000
Message-ID <9v3noiFchsU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References <4F84FB1E.6CD1FC88@sonic.net> <6799b00c-7c9e-4f0c-9a97-3994c3d81b5f@x17g2000vba.googlegroups.com> <jmbvbo$cu3$1@needham.csi.cam.ac.uk> <5623c8b4-715e-4ee3-8440-ed4331416aee@z3g2000vbk.googlegroups.com> <jmhjnc$770$1@needham.csi.cam.ac.uk>

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On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 18:09:00 +0100, nmm1 wrote:

> In article
> <5623c8b4-715e-4ee3-8440-ed4331416aee@z3g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
> Paul A. Clayton <paaronclayton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>[snip]
>>> >It is probably more difficult to write an _optimizing_ compiler for
>>> >CISC than for RISC. =A0...
>>>
>>> He did say "orthogonal", and is probably right there.
>>
>>Could you unpack that statement.  It seems to me that a CISC would
>>include all the instructions in a RISC plus instructions which are
>>semantically just sequences of RISC instructions (with the
>>potential--not necessarily guaranteed--difference of being atomic with
>>respect to interrupts).
> 
> I am afraid that's far too simplistic and even naive.  The problem with
> the so-called RISC designs wasn't the fact that they often had more
> instructions than CISC ones, but that the semantics of the instructions
> they did have were often highly unsuitable for programming with and with
> extremely non-orthogonal semantics.

Eh?  Your experience and mine clearly differ.  The (early) RISC machines 
that I remember suffered more (but not much) from a slavish adherence to 
the semantics of C (such as that was generally understood, at the time), 
leaving out seemingly useful features of earlier architectures, like post-
increment addressing modes and condition codes.

What's non-orthogonal about a general 3-register instruction structure?

> Such delights as not being allowed an instruction of type X within 3
> executed instructions of one of type Y, when the former updated register
> A and the latter used register A for address calculations.
> That's invented, but was the sort of thing that did get specified.

Yes, some of the earlier RISCs didn't have full (or any) pipeline 
interlocks, which was unusual, but (IMO) a worthwhile experiment to see 
how much advantage for pipelining that could give you in return.  The 
most egregious example was probably the i860, but it was the fastest 
thing going for a significant chunk of time.  Most of the CISCs of the 
day (excluding IBM, of which I have no personal experience) didn't have 
those problems because they just didn't do pipelining.

In terms of actual instruction semantics (particularly arithmetic and 
logic instructions), you couldn't ask for more consistency or suitability 
for programming with...

Cheers,

-- 
Andrew

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Indirect Bit Mark Thorson <nospam@sonic.net> - 2012-04-10 19:31 -0800
  Re: Indirect Bit Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-11 01:29 -0500
    Re: Indirect Bit sarr.blumson@alum.dartmouth.org - 2012-04-11 14:48 +0000
      Re: Indirect Bit mac <acolvin@efunct.com> - 2012-04-12 14:43 +0000
    Re: Indirect Bit Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2012-04-22 15:19 +0200
      Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-22 23:24 -0700
  Re: Indirect Bit Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2012-04-11 08:32 +0200
    Re: Indirect Bit Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-11 05:49 -0700
      Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-12 21:22 -0700
        Re: Indirect Bit "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2012-04-13 08:14 -0700
          Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-13 16:13 -0700
            Re: Indirect Bit "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2012-04-13 20:01 -0700
              Re: Indirect Bit Andrew Reilly <areilly.---@bigpond.net.au> - 2012-04-14 03:16 +0000
                Re: Indirect Bit "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2012-04-14 08:14 -0700
        Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-13 16:05 -0700
          Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-13 17:01 -0700
            Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-14 13:49 -0700
          Re: Indirect Bit Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2012-04-13 20:07 -0400
          Re: Indirect Bit Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2012-04-14 18:47 +0200
          Re: Indirect Bit Morten Reistad <first@last.name> - 2012-04-22 15:26 +0200
            Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-22 23:25 -0700
              Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-23 09:18 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2012-04-23 19:35 -0400
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-24 08:37 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-24 09:42 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-24 01:58 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-24 11:26 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-24 05:02 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-24 13:58 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-24 10:07 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-24 04:30 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-24 13:01 +0100
  Re: Indirect Bit Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2012-04-11 10:03 -0400
  Re: Indirect Bit kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-04-11 09:22 -0500
    Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-12 14:11 -0700
      Re: Indirect Bit Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2012-04-12 18:05 -0400
        Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-12 20:13 -0700
      Re: Indirect Bit Mark Thorson <nospam@sonic.net> - 2012-04-12 16:55 -0800
        Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-12 17:25 -0700
          Re: Indirect Bit Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-12 20:03 -0500
          Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-12 21:33 -0700
            Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-13 15:57 -0700
              Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-13 17:03 -0700
        Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-12 20:14 -0700
  Re: Indirect Bit Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2012-04-11 10:35 -0400
  Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-11 08:54 -0700
  Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-12 07:55 -0700
    Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-12 10:16 -0700
      Re: Indirect Bit jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-12 11:07 -0700
        Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-12 21:34 -0700
      Re: Indirect Bit Stephen Fuld <SFuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2012-04-12 11:35 -0700
        Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-12 21:41 -0700
          Re: Indirect Bit jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-13 14:52 -0700
          Re: Indirect Bit Stephen Fuld <SFuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2012-04-15 09:24 -0700
            Re: Indirect Bit Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2012-04-15 22:45 +0200
              Re: Indirect Bit Stephen Fuld <SFuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2012-04-15 18:04 -0700
      Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-12 21:12 -0700
    Re: Indirect Bit timcaffrey@aol.com (Tim McCaffrey) - 2012-04-12 19:23 +0000
    Re: Indirect Bit Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2012-04-13 08:54 +0200
      Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-14 14:37 -0700
    Re: Indirect Bit Andrew Reilly <areilly.---@bigpond.net.au> - 2012-04-15 23:42 +0000
      Re: Indirect Bit "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2012-04-16 08:08 -0700
        Re: Indirect Bit Andrew Reilly <areilly.---@bigpond.net.au> - 2012-04-16 23:38 +0000
          Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-16 21:29 -0700
      Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-16 21:25 -0700
  Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-12 14:05 -0700
    Re: Indirect Bit ChrisQ <blackhole@devnull.com> - 2012-04-14 10:12 +0000
      Re: Indirect Bit "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2012-04-14 06:25 -0700
        Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-14 14:50 +0100
          Re: Indirect Bit ChrisQ <blackhole@devnull.com> - 2012-04-14 18:01 +0000
            Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-14 14:00 -0700
              Re: Indirect Bit Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2012-04-14 20:58 -0400
            Re: Indirect Bit "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2012-04-16 09:57 -0700
            Re: Indirect Bit timcaffrey@aol.com (Tim McCaffrey) - 2012-04-20 23:19 +0000
          Re: Indirect Bit "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2012-04-16 08:50 -0700
            Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-16 18:09 +0100
              Re: Indirect Bit Andrew Reilly <areilly.---@bigpond.net.au> - 2012-04-16 23:19 +0000
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-17 09:20 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2012-04-17 12:49 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit Andrew Reilly <areilly.---@bigpond.net.au> - 2012-04-17 12:40 +0000
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-18 12:01 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-04-17 12:34 +0000
                Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-17 09:10 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit Andrew Reilly <areilly.---@bigpond.net.au> - 2012-04-17 22:05 +0000
                Re: Indirect Bit jgk@panix.com (Joe keane) - 2012-04-19 19:37 +0000
                Re: Indirect Bit torbenm@diku.dk (Torben Ægidius Mogensen) - 2012-04-20 11:10 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2012-04-20 11:24 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-20 15:01 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-20 15:03 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-20 08:01 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-20 16:35 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-18 11:10 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-18 15:37 -0700
          Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-16 11:21 -0700
            Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-16 19:36 +0100
              Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-18 11:17 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-18 15:33 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit Andreas Eder <andreas_eder@gmx.net> - 2012-04-19 00:29 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-19 10:50 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-19 11:29 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-19 21:39 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2012-04-20 15:14 -0400
                Re: Indirect Bit "Andy (Super) Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2012-04-20 22:43 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2012-04-21 17:14 -0400
                Re: Indirect Bit Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-21 19:47 -0500
                Re: Indirect Bit Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-04-22 10:45 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-22 09:57 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2012-04-22 12:54 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-22 13:00 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-04-22 13:28 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-22 13:04 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201204.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-04-22 23:00 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2012-04-22 18:05 -0400
                Re: Indirect Bit glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2012-04-22 23:20 +0000
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-23 08:22 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-22 03:56 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2012-04-22 12:28 -0400
                Re: Indirect Bit Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-22 12:56 -0500
                Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-22 13:15 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> - 2012-04-22 22:30 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-22 21:40 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-22 17:15 -0500
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-23 08:26 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Stephen Fuld <SFuld@alumni.cmu.edu.invalid> - 2012-04-23 08:02 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2012-04-23 17:02 +0100
                Re: Indirect Bit Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-201204.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2012-04-23 20:17 +0200
                Re: Indirect Bit Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-23 13:07 -0500
                Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-22 13:16 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-23 13:14 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> - 2012-04-23 16:51 -0400
                Re: Indirect Bit Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2012-04-23 14:22 -0700
                Re: Indirect Bit MitchAlsup <MitchAlsup@aol.com> - 2012-04-21 11:17 -0700
        Re: Indirect Bit jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-04-14 08:02 -0700

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