Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity)

From	Andrew Reilly <areilly---@bigpond.net.au>
Newsgroups	alt.comp.lang.borland-delphi, alt.math, comp.arch, comp.graphics.algorithms, comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity)
Date	2011-10-13 03:48 +0000
Message-ID	<9fn5cjFsr4U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <4E95BBEE.3000005@verizon.net> <j74jh0$dva$1@gosset.csi.cam.ac.uk> <4E95EB4F.20903@verizon.net> <j74qml$el1$1@gosset.csi.cam.ac.uk> <ac3cbd3b-a4a3-4d15-9fe8-e844a482849e@db5g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>

Cross-posted to 5 groups.

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On Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:11:12 -0700, Robert Myers wrote:
> It may be the last thing standing between us and careerists who don't
> have a clue "validating" their results by transferring a meaningless
> calculation from one machine to another with no clue that something
> totally crazy is going on.

Nick does have a good point though, notwithstanding the last couple of 
posts in which the authors asserted that C (at least) now *does* specify 
a total order of operations within expressions (even ones that appear 
ambiguous because of expectations of associativity).  I didn't realize 
that, and I'm still not sure that I believe them.

Nick's point (I believe) is that floating point arithmetic is fraught, 
because it is fairly fundamentally unlike the mathematics that expression-
based languages appear to be offering.  In maths and exact computer 
arithmetic (eg integer), addition is associative and a bunch of other 
nice rules for "simplification" apply.  In floating point they don't, 
because every floating point multiply (a * b), for example, is really 
something like round(_g_current_FPU_rounding_mode, multiply(a,b)), and 
every addition or subtraction is even more complicated, with a bunch of 
normalizations thrown in for good measure.  Round is, naturally, a lossy 
operation.  Throw in exceptions that can be raised in a bunch of ways and 
you wind up with something that can only really be reasoned about as a 
discrete sequence of assembly-language-like operations that both produce 
results and mutate and depend on the "system state" in obscure and 
platform-dependent ways.  I haven't even mentioned an IEEE standard here: 
it ought to be possible to define a stateless floating point method, 
where rounding modes were explicit in the instructions and exceptions 
were either defined away as in-band values or made of precice exceptions, 
but I've never heard of it being done.

Clearly you can still have parallelism between independent operations, 
but you can't manipulate floating point expressions that look like maths 
as though they were maths, at least not without giving up being able to 
reason about the answer.

Which I think just emphasises your point, too: people doing floating 
point need to have a clue...

Cheers,

-- 
Andrew

Thread

Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-10-08 02:54 +0200
  Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Robert Myers <rbmyersusa@gmail.com> - 2011-10-07 18:40 -0700
    Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-07 22:39 -0400
  Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) William Elliot <marsh@rdrop.com> - 2011-10-07 19:56 -0700
    Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2011-10-08 06:45 +0000
      Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) gordonb.eug6r@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-10-08 02:37 -0500
        Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) William Elliot <marsh@rdrop.com> - 2011-10-08 21:40 -0700
          Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Kaba <kaba@nowhere.com> - 2011-10-09 12:17 +0300
  Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2011-10-08 06:33 +0000
  Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-10-08 16:41 +0200
    Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2011-10-09 04:01 -0500
  Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Kaba <kaba@nowhere.com> - 2011-10-08 17:43 +0300
    Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "christian.bau" <christian.bau@cbau.wanadoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-08 10:20 -0700
      Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Kaba <kaba@nowhere.com> - 2011-10-08 22:35 +0300
    Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-08 18:55 +0100
      Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Kaba <kaba@nowhere.com> - 2011-10-08 23:03 +0300
        Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-08 21:27 +0100
          Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-08 17:28 -0400
            Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Robert Myers <rbmyersusa@gmail.com> - 2011-10-08 18:15 -0400
            Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-08 23:23 +0100
              Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-08 21:29 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-09 10:01 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Al Grant <algrant@myrealbox.com> - 2011-10-12 06:14 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-12 15:25 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-12 12:10 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-12 18:41 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-12 15:32 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-12 20:44 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Robert Myers <rbmyersusa@gmail.com> - 2011-10-12 18:11 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Andrew Reilly <areilly---@bigpond.net.au> - 2011-10-13 03:48 +0000
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2011-10-12 23:15 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-13 09:12 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2011-10-13 00:49 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-13 10:37 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2011-10-13 11:04 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2011-10-13 17:15 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-14 09:22 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2011-10-14 13:37 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Andy \"Krazy\" Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2011-10-13 11:11 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Al Grant <algrant@myrealbox.com> - 2011-10-14 01:04 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-13 09:07 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Al Grant <algrant@myrealbox.com> - 2011-10-13 07:00 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Robert Myers <rbmyersusa@gmail.com> - 2011-10-14 10:54 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Andrew Reilly <areilly---@bigpond.net.au> - 2011-10-14 22:36 +0000
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-15 09:26 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2011-10-15 05:39 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-15 14:56 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-17 08:37 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-17 12:03 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-17 11:13 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-17 22:30 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2011-10-17 14:47 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-18 11:33 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-18 10:21 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-18 08:16 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-18 14:26 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-18 13:32 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-18 17:47 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-18 17:51 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-19 10:37 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-19 09:36 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-19 11:46 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-19 10:45 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-19 13:11 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-19 12:12 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-19 16:22 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-19 15:16 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Andrew Reilly <areilly---@bigpond.net.au> - 2011-10-15 20:16 +0000
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Robert Myers <rbmyersusa@gmail.com> - 2011-10-15 16:26 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-17 08:14 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-17 08:22 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-17 11:39 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) - 2011-10-17 21:00 -0500
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-10-18 05:44 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Andy \"Krazy\" Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2011-10-17 21:35 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2011-10-24 02:40 +0000
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-27 00:32 +0300
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-27 10:41 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-27 13:10 +0300
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-27 13:53 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-10-12 12:34 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Al Grant <algrant@myrealbox.com> - 2011-10-13 06:39 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-13 10:34 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Al Grant <algrant@myrealbox.com> - 2011-10-14 00:54 -0700
            Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Larry Hewitt <larryhwtt@comporium.net> - 2011-10-09 21:35 -0400
              Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-10-10 04:37 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Larry Hewitt <larryhwtt@comporium.net> - 2011-10-10 13:58 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-10-13 20:17 +0200
        Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Arivald <arivald_@AT_interia_DOT_.pl> - 2011-10-13 12:10 +0200

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