Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity)

Message-ID	<4E9D01FC.8040308@SPAM.comp-arch.net> (permalink)
Date	2011-10-17 21:35 -0700
From	"Andy \"Krazy\" Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net>
Organization	comp-arch.net
Newsgroups	comp.arch
Subject	Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity)
References	(7 earlier) <0660aa82-b446-459d-99b5-441c1588f39e@u13g2000vbx.googlegroups.com> <9frrqsF4kcU1@mid.individual.net> <a6pnm8-kqj2.ln1@ntp6.tmsw.no> <9fu814Fj3bU1@mid.individual.net> <ontsm8-5jq2.ln1@ntp6.tmsw.no>

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On 10/16/2011 11:14 PM, Terje Mathisen wrote:
> Andrew Reilly wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 09:26:28 +0200, Terje Mathisen wrote:
>>> I would in fact be much _more_ useful to have a mode where rounding was
>>> arbitrary/random, and could even impact one or more extra low bits.
>>
>> I would like one of those, myself, at least as a debugging alternative.
>>
>>> I.e. if your code doesn't produce effectively the same results under
>>> such a regime, your algorithms are almost certainly broken.
>>
>> Not necessarily (depending on your definition of "effectively"): anything
>> that involves classification into discrete sets, or comparisons against
>> thresholds, or quantization is eventually going to come across an example
>> that could reasonably go either way, and then suddenly an insignificant
>> floating point difference becomes a significant integer difference. Yes,
>> there is a sense in which these are "effectively" the same, but these
>> sorts of thing are quite difficult to build reliable unit or compliance
>> tests for. I do understand the impulse to bit-exactness, but I know it's
>> not the right answer...
>
> The need isn't really to be bit-exact, but to be bit-repeatable:
>
> There are several important algorithms that depend on knowing that two
> independent calculations with the same inputs will result in the same
> exact result, i.e. to cover every single pixel in a triangle-tesselated
> world description.
>
> Mike Abrash tells a fun story about how they wasted a week or so looking
> for a glitch in the Quake sw 3D pipeline, where they would very
> occasionally spot a momentary glitch giving a single pixel error.
>
> They finally discovered that they had been sold a machine with a fake
> 100 MHz cpu: It was really only 90 MHz but tested by the white box
> manufacturer to be "totally solid at 100 MHz, so we'll save a few bucks".
>
> It turned out that running at 100 Mhz it would not always manage to
> finalize all the low order bits of all fp operations, effectively
> resulting in spurious loss of precision.
>
> So, at least for this particular code, having really random rounding
> would not be good.:-(
>
> Terje

I remember when Mike and John found this bug.  I think it was in an 
early P6 or P5.We were preparing for a tiger team effort, when they came 
back and told us they had an overclocked CPU.

Thread

Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-10-08 02:54 +0200
  Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Robert Myers <rbmyersusa@gmail.com> - 2011-10-07 18:40 -0700
    Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-07 22:39 -0400
  Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) William Elliot <marsh@rdrop.com> - 2011-10-07 19:56 -0700
    Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2011-10-08 06:45 +0000
      Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) gordonb.eug6r@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-10-08 02:37 -0500
        Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) William Elliot <marsh@rdrop.com> - 2011-10-08 21:40 -0700
          Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Kaba <kaba@nowhere.com> - 2011-10-09 12:17 +0300
  Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2011-10-08 06:33 +0000
  Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-10-08 16:41 +0200
    Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2011-10-09 04:01 -0500
  Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Kaba <kaba@nowhere.com> - 2011-10-08 17:43 +0300
    Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "christian.bau" <christian.bau@cbau.wanadoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-08 10:20 -0700
      Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Kaba <kaba@nowhere.com> - 2011-10-08 22:35 +0300
    Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-08 18:55 +0100
      Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Kaba <kaba@nowhere.com> - 2011-10-08 23:03 +0300
        Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-08 21:27 +0100
          Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-08 17:28 -0400
            Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Robert Myers <rbmyersusa@gmail.com> - 2011-10-08 18:15 -0400
            Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-08 23:23 +0100
              Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-08 21:29 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-09 10:01 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Al Grant <algrant@myrealbox.com> - 2011-10-12 06:14 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-12 15:25 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-12 12:10 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-12 18:41 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-12 15:32 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-12 20:44 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Robert Myers <rbmyersusa@gmail.com> - 2011-10-12 18:11 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Andrew Reilly <areilly---@bigpond.net.au> - 2011-10-13 03:48 +0000
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2011-10-12 23:15 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-13 09:12 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2011-10-13 00:49 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-13 10:37 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2011-10-13 11:04 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2011-10-13 17:15 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-14 09:22 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2011-10-14 13:37 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Andy \"Krazy\" Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2011-10-13 11:11 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Al Grant <algrant@myrealbox.com> - 2011-10-14 01:04 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-13 09:07 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Al Grant <algrant@myrealbox.com> - 2011-10-13 07:00 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Robert Myers <rbmyersusa@gmail.com> - 2011-10-14 10:54 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Andrew Reilly <areilly---@bigpond.net.au> - 2011-10-14 22:36 +0000
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-15 09:26 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2011-10-15 05:39 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-15 14:56 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-17 08:37 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-17 12:03 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-17 11:13 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-17 22:30 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2011-10-17 14:47 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-18 11:33 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-18 10:21 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-18 08:16 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-18 14:26 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-18 13:32 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-18 17:47 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-18 17:51 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-19 10:37 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-19 09:36 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-19 11:46 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-19 10:45 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-19 13:11 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-19 12:12 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-19 16:22 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-19 15:16 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Andrew Reilly <areilly---@bigpond.net.au> - 2011-10-15 20:16 +0000
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Robert Myers <rbmyersusa@gmail.com> - 2011-10-15 16:26 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-17 08:14 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-17 08:22 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-17 11:39 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) - 2011-10-17 21:00 -0500
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-10-18 05:44 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Andy \"Krazy\" Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2011-10-17 21:35 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2011-10-24 02:40 +0000
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-27 00:32 +0300
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-27 10:41 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-27 13:10 +0300
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-27 13:53 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-10-12 12:34 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Al Grant <algrant@myrealbox.com> - 2011-10-13 06:39 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-13 10:34 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Al Grant <algrant@myrealbox.com> - 2011-10-14 00:54 -0700
            Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Larry Hewitt <larryhwtt@comporium.net> - 2011-10-09 21:35 -0400
              Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-10-10 04:37 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Larry Hewitt <larryhwtt@comporium.net> - 2011-10-10 13:58 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-10-13 20:17 +0200
        Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Arivald <arivald_@AT_interia_DOT_.pl> - 2011-10-13 12:10 +0200

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