Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity)

From	James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net>
Newsgroups	alt.comp.lang.borland-delphi, alt.math, comp.arch, comp.graphics.algorithms, comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity)
Date	2011-10-12 15:32 -0400
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<4E95EB4F.20903@verizon.net> (permalink)
References	<89f27$4e8f9f40$5419acc3$12829@cache4.tilbu1.nb.home.nl> <88cbbc8b-1fab-4dde-96b0-4dd0cd7c183d@b6g2000vbz.googlegroups.com> <j74805$d1b$1@gosset.csi.cam.ac.uk> <4E95BBEE.3000005@verizon.net> <j74jh0$dva$1@gosset.csi.cam.ac.uk>

Cross-posted to 5 groups.

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On 10/12/2011 01:41 PM, nmm1@cam.ac.uk wrote:
> In article <4E95BBEE.3000005@verizon.net>,
> James Kuyper  <jameskuyper@verizon.net> wrote:
...
>> position, and IMO fully defensible, is that the BNF implies constraints
>> on the execution order. For instance, in ((a+b) + (c+d)), the a+b can be
>> executed before or after the (c+d), but both must be executed before the
>> final addition can be performed, because that addition requires the
>> results of those execution.
> 
> Well, yes, but I never said it wasn't!  What I said was that there
> were lots of OTHER interpretations, which were ALSO defensible.

I'm sure that there are alternative interpretations, many of them
defensible. The relevant thing would be a defensible interpretation that
differs from the one I gave in ways that would be problematic. Every
problematic interpretation I could come up with was indefensible for
reasons directly connected to the fact that was problematic. Could you
give an example?

...
>> However, for an implementation that pre-#defines __STDC_IEC_559__, it
>> seems to me that the "final result" necessarily includes the values of
>> testable floating point environment flags; at least, if it occurs within
>> code that actual performs such tests.
> 
> I can tell you that most of the proponents of that agree with you;
> unfortunately a lot of WG14 didn't, and so it was left up in the air.

An argument against that interpretation would be more relevant than an
assertion that there are people who believe in the validity of that
argument.

>> You know this, but for the benefit of those who don't: C99 added
>> <fenv.h>, providing portable C support for such flags.
> 
> I know damn well it didn't!

It might not have done it as well as you might have liked - but it did
do it. :-)

...
> Secondly, the problem is NOT solely optionality (as you claimed
> that I showed) ...

That's the main thing I remembered you arguing; I didn't mean to imply
that the arguments I remembered were the only ones you actually made -
my memory's not that good.

> ... - it's serious ambiguity and even inconsistency.
> Here is one example of the problem.
> 
> 5.1.2.3 Program execution footnote 11:
> 
>     ...  Floating-point operations implicitly set the status flags; ....
>     Implementations that support such floating-point state are required
>     to regard changes to it as side effects  ....
> 
> 6.5 Expressions para. 5:
> 
>     If an exceptional condition occurs during the evaluation of an
>     expression (that is, if the result is not mathematically defined or
>     not in the range of representable values for its type), the behavior
>     is undefined.
> 
> 7.6 Floating-point environment para. 1:
> 
>     ...  A floating-point status flag is a system variable whose value
>     is set (but never cleared) when a floating-point exception is
>     raised, which occurs as a side effect of exceptional floating-point
>     arithmetic to provide auxiliary information.  ...
> 
> Now, 6.5 states unequivocally that exceptional conditions lead to
> undefined behaviour, which is assuredly sometimes the case.  But
> Annex F states they are not if __STDC_IEC_559__ is defined.  Why
> do you claim that the latter overrides the former, and not the
> former the latter?

Specifications for particular cases are routinely considered to override
any conflicting specification covering more the general cases; the
standard would require a lot of complicated re-wording if that weren't
true. #ifdef __STDC_IEC_559__ is more specific than #ifndef.

> That would have been trivial to fix,

What fix do you think would be needed?
"An implementation that defines __STDC_IEC_559_ _ shall conform to the
specifications in this annex." (F1.1). Should they add the words "even
in circumstances where the rest of the standard says that the behavior
is undefined."? That would seem redundant with the simple word "shall"
to me. What does the "shall" mean in this context if it doesn't already
imply that?

4p1: "‘‘shall’’ is to be interpreted as a requirement on an
implementation or on a program;" This is clearly a requirement imposed
on the implementation.

3.4.3p1: undefined behavior
"behavior, ... for which this International Standard imposes no
requirements."

Annex F is a part of "this International Standard", is labeled as
normative, and imposes requirements for the behavior when an
implementation chooses to pre-#define __STDC_IEC_559__. That doesn't
seem to meet the standard's definition of "undefined behavior".

Thread

Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-10-08 02:54 +0200
  Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Robert Myers <rbmyersusa@gmail.com> - 2011-10-07 18:40 -0700
    Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-07 22:39 -0400
  Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) William Elliot <marsh@rdrop.com> - 2011-10-07 19:56 -0700
    Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2011-10-08 06:45 +0000
      Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) gordonb.eug6r@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-10-08 02:37 -0500
        Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) William Elliot <marsh@rdrop.com> - 2011-10-08 21:40 -0700
          Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Kaba <kaba@nowhere.com> - 2011-10-09 12:17 +0300
  Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2011-10-08 06:33 +0000
  Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-10-08 16:41 +0200
    Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2011-10-09 04:01 -0500
  Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Kaba <kaba@nowhere.com> - 2011-10-08 17:43 +0300
    Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "christian.bau" <christian.bau@cbau.wanadoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-08 10:20 -0700
      Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Kaba <kaba@nowhere.com> - 2011-10-08 22:35 +0300
    Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-08 18:55 +0100
      Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Kaba <kaba@nowhere.com> - 2011-10-08 23:03 +0300
        Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-08 21:27 +0100
          Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-08 17:28 -0400
            Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Robert Myers <rbmyersusa@gmail.com> - 2011-10-08 18:15 -0400
            Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-08 23:23 +0100
              Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-08 21:29 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-09 10:01 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Al Grant <algrant@myrealbox.com> - 2011-10-12 06:14 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-12 15:25 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-12 12:10 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-12 18:41 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-12 15:32 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-12 20:44 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Robert Myers <rbmyersusa@gmail.com> - 2011-10-12 18:11 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Andrew Reilly <areilly---@bigpond.net.au> - 2011-10-13 03:48 +0000
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2011-10-12 23:15 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-13 09:12 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2011-10-13 00:49 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-13 10:37 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2011-10-13 11:04 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2011-10-13 17:15 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-14 09:22 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) EricP <ThatWouldBeTelling@thevillage.com> - 2011-10-14 13:37 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Andy \"Krazy\" Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2011-10-13 11:11 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Al Grant <algrant@myrealbox.com> - 2011-10-14 01:04 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-13 09:07 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Al Grant <algrant@myrealbox.com> - 2011-10-13 07:00 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Robert Myers <rbmyersusa@gmail.com> - 2011-10-14 10:54 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Andrew Reilly <areilly---@bigpond.net.au> - 2011-10-14 22:36 +0000
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-15 09:26 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2011-10-15 05:39 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-15 14:56 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-17 08:37 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-17 12:03 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-17 11:13 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-17 22:30 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Paul A. Clayton" <paaronclayton@gmail.com> - 2011-10-17 14:47 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-18 11:33 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-18 10:21 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-18 08:16 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-18 14:26 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-18 13:32 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-18 17:47 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-18 17:51 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-19 10:37 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-19 09:36 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-19 11:46 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-19 10:45 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-19 13:11 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-19 12:12 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-19 16:22 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-19 15:16 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Andrew Reilly <areilly---@bigpond.net.au> - 2011-10-15 20:16 +0000
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Robert Myers <rbmyersusa@gmail.com> - 2011-10-15 16:26 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-17 08:14 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) nmm1@cam.ac.uk - 2011-10-17 08:22 +0100
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-17 11:39 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) - 2011-10-17 21:00 -0500
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-10-18 05:44 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Andy \"Krazy\" Glew" <andy@SPAM.comp-arch.net> - 2011-10-17 21:35 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2011-10-24 02:40 +0000
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-27 00:32 +0300
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-27 10:41 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-10-27 13:10 +0300
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Terje Mathisen <"terje.mathisen at tmsw.no"> - 2011-10-27 13:53 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-10-12 12:34 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Al Grant <algrant@myrealbox.com> - 2011-10-13 06:39 -0700
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-10-13 10:34 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Al Grant <algrant@myrealbox.com> - 2011-10-14 00:54 -0700
            Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Larry Hewitt <larryhwtt@comporium.net> - 2011-10-09 21:35 -0400
              Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-10-10 04:37 +0200
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Larry Hewitt <larryhwtt@comporium.net> - 2011-10-10 13:58 -0400
                Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) "Skybuck Flying" <Windows7IsOK@DreamPC2006.com> - 2011-10-13 20:17 +0200
        Re: Infinity + Infinity (or NegInfinity - NegInfinity) Arivald <arivald_@AT_interia_DOT_.pl> - 2011-10-13 12:10 +0200

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