Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #452545

Re: Those LYING scientists

Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Date	2018-03-13 14:29 -0700
References	<6c3db473-6b22-47e4-8c22-f8fa182b1379@googlegroups.com> <cc6891f7-3052-433c-9f62-7fef6daa20d1@googlegroups.com> <9c71382c-80f3-47b3-bc7b-5822fe400fea@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID	<95992c43-7fc4-4bfc-bb91-2aede433fa3d@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: Those LYING scientists
From	Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com>

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On Tuesday, March 13, 2018 at 3:07:59 PM UTC-5, danco...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, March 12, 2018 at 2:38:54 PM UTC-7, Ed Lake wrote:
> > 1. Space and time separations are not the same in different frames.
> 
> Yes, but this refers to the frame-specific measures of space and time, which are expressed as (local) inertial coordinates.  It is indeed true that the space and time separations between two events are different in terms of different (relatively moving, local) systems of inertial coordinates. 

Okay, so we agree on this.

> 
> In fact, relativity gives us formulas describing precisely how they differ, and those formulas have been shown to be precisely correct by countless experiments.  

Okay, we agree on that, too.

> Although the space and time separations (i.e., the coordinate separations) are different, the absolute separation (i.e., the proper time) is always the same.

It's not the point of MY confusion, but it might be the point of confusion for others on this forum.  "Absolute separation" has no meaning to me.  And "proper time" is just the time shown by a specific clock in a specific frame.

> This is the source of your confusion.  When people talk about clocks running slow, they mean compared to some particular system of coordinates, but when they say clocks all run at the same rate they mean in terms of the so-called "proper time" of each clock.  So both statements are correct, they just mean different things.

Yes, that is what I HAVE BEEN SAYING.  But why can't anyone here relate that to the three experiments I listed: (1) NIST, (2) the Italian experiment, and (3) Hafele-Keating?  Why do they endlessly obfuscate and avoid discussing what the experiments demonstrated?

I've been saying that the whole point of Relativity is that clocks tick at DIFFERENT rates in different frames of reference, depending upon velocity and gravity.  Clocks tick slower at the bottom of a mountain than a the top.  Clocks tick slower when they are with an object that is moving very fast.  And virtually everyone here just argues that that is NOT true because time moves at the same rate everywhere (or in your terms, "proper time" moves at the same rate everywhere). 

>  
> > Why is that seemingly impossible for mathematicians to understand?????
> 
> It isn't impossible for mathematicians to understand.  Quite the contrary, the arguably most elegant expressions for how the space and time separations differ, and the concept of absolute or "proper" time, was invented by two mathematicians (Henri Poincare and Hermann Minkowski).

Then why is it impossible for others in this forum to understand?

> 
> A big source of confusion is that you are trying to apply statements about special relativity to experiments like Hafele-Keating which involve differences in gravitational potential, so general relativity must be applied.  

How can that be confusing?  NIST and the Italian experiment were EXCLUSIVELY about general relativity.  Hafele-Keating was about BOTH special and general relativity.  Unlike the other two experiments, Hafele-Keating involved clocks that MOVED, PLUS the clocks were lifted into the air by airplanes.  So, both special and general relativity had to be considered.  Table 1 in their first paper shows the "gravitational" AND "kinematic" differences they expected. https://www.uam.es/personal_pdi/ciencias/jcuevas/Teaching/Hafele-Keating-Science-1972b.pdf

> The reason this is confusing is that when there are no significant difference in gravitational potential the relations between space and time separations are perfectly reciprocal, but when there are significant differences in potential the relations are not reciprocal.

Okay.  That last sentence probably shows where we disagree.  The problem is that you use the word "potential" in a way that makes no sense to me.  Plus, nothing is "reciprocal" in nature, only in the world of mathematics.

Maybe you meant:

"The reason this is confusing is that when there are no significant difference[s] in [gravity] [all movements] are perfectly reciprocal, but when there are significant differences in [gravity] [movements] are not reciprocal.

That still makes no sense.  It seems you understand that gravity is NOT reciprocal.  But you somehow believe movement (or motion) IS reciprocal.  There we firmly disagree.  To me, all movement is relative to the point where the Big Bang occurred.  Off hand, I cannot think of ANY movement that is reciprocal.  In fact, I have the idea that "All motion is reciprocal" as #3 on my list of "The 10 DUMBEST Ideas in Physics." http://oldguynewissues.blogspot.com/2018/02/the-10-dumbest-ideas-in-physics.html   

This was going to be my last post for awhile, since no one else posted anything in the past 24 hours worth my time to respond.  But your post shows EXACTLY where we disagree.  So, maybe we can discuss it.

Here's part of a comment I wrote today on my web site:

"If you corner a mathematician, he will explain that 'all motion is relative' means that 'all motion is reciprocal,' since mathematicians believe there is no 'preferred frame of reference.'  Therefore, if a child gets on his tricycle and starts peddling around on the sidewalk, it is just as 'possible' that the child is actually stationary and somehow his peddling is causing the sidewalk, the earth (and the universe) to move around under him.  All motion is relative.  All  motion is reciprocal.  There's no way to tell (mathematically) who is moving and who is not.

If all motion or movement is reciprocal, doesn't that mean that you cannot tell if the child is moving or if the child is stationary and the earth and universe are moving?  From my point of view, since I believe in cause and effect, the child CAUSED the tricycle to move by pushing on the pedals.  That had the EFFECT of turning the wheels, and friction with the sidewalk CAUSE the tricycle to move.  

Likewise, gasoline in the engines of the aircraft carrying the atomic clocks in the Hafele-Keating CAUSED the EFFECT of making the airplanes move and fly.  So, there is NOTHING reciprocal involved.

At least, that's the way I see it.  I'll be back tomorrow to see if or how you respond and to see if there is any point in continuing this discussion.

Ed

Thread

Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-08 14:18 -0800
  Re: Those LYING scientists pnalsing@gmail.com - 2018-03-08 14:40 -0800
    Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 07:04 -0800
      Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-09 07:20 -0800
      Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 18:35 +0000
        Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-09 10:48 -0800
        Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-09 10:50 -0800
    Re: Those LYING scientists Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@notmail.com> - 2018-03-10 10:29 +0100
      Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-10 01:45 -0800
        Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-10 15:13 +0000
          Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-10 12:34 -0800
  Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-08 14:50 -0800
    Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-08 15:27 -0800
    Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 07:13 -0800
      Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-09 08:16 -0800
        Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-09 08:29 -0800
        Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 08:56 -0800
          Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-09 09:06 -0800
            Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 09:38 -0800
  Re: Those LYING scientists Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 01:44 +0000
    Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 07:23 -0800
      Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-09 08:51 -0800
        Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-09 09:04 -0800
        Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 09:26 -0800
          Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-09 10:06 -0800
            Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 13:22 -0800
              Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 13:37 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 14:11 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 22:14 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 19:26 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-10 09:28 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-10 12:17 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-10 13:10 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-10 13:27 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-10 12:21 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-11 11:51 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Térov Balónky <iytn@yeicenlw.ik> - 2018-03-11 19:12 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-03-12 02:27 +0100
                If you, really understood relativity you would understand that you do NOT understand relativity. Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 10:25 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-11 12:16 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-11 19:51 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-11 13:28 -0700
              Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 22:11 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-09 15:03 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 23:19 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-09 22:20 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-03-09 18:13 -0500
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 23:23 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-09 22:24 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 16:58 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-09 17:34 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-09 17:38 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 18:02 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-09 18:22 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-10 04:20 +0000
  Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-08 18:25 -0800
    Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-08 21:33 -0800
    Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 07:39 -0800
      Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 10:01 -0800
        Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 13:30 -0800
          Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 13:41 -0800
            Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 14:26 -0800
              Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 19:42 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-10 09:44 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-10 10:18 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-03-11 01:04 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-10 12:31 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-11 12:00 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-11 12:24 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-11 13:34 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-03-11 21:41 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-11 14:16 -0700
          Re: Those LYING scientists RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-11 18:40 -0700
  Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-08 20:16 -0800
    Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-08 21:34 -0800
    Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-08 22:25 -0800
      Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-08 23:09 -0800
        Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-08 23:51 -0800
        Re: Those LYING scientists Ernie Shackelford <iugtar@ttrwrta.oc> - 2018-03-09 10:38 +0000
        Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 08:03 -0800
      Re: Those LYING scientists Ernie Shackelford <iugtar@ttrwrta.oc> - 2018-03-09 10:35 +0000
      Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 08:43 -0800
        Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-10 21:39 -0800
          Re: Those LYING scientists The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-03-11 12:05 -0700
            Re: Those LYING scientists The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-03-11 12:18 -0700
            Re: Those LYING scientists The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-03-11 12:31 -0700
              Re: Those LYING scientists The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-03-11 12:50 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-03-11 17:59 -0700
          Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-11 12:46 -0700
        Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-11 08:27 -0700
          Re: Those LYING scientists Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@notmail.com> - 2018-03-11 17:12 +0100
          Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-11 12:56 -0700
    Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 07:45 -0800
      Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 18:35 +0000
    Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 07:53 -0800
      Re: Those LYING scientists Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-03-09 16:58 +0100
  Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-09 08:24 -0800
    Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 09:13 -0800
      Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-09 10:35 -0800
      Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-11 09:41 -0700
        Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-11 13:13 -0700
  Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 09:55 -0800
    Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-09 10:26 -0800
      Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 14:00 -0800
    Re: Those LYING scientists The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-03-09 23:28 -0800
  Re: Those LYING scientists John Heath <heathjohn2@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 13:38 -0800
    Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 14:16 -0800
  Re: Those LYING scientists Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2018-03-10 08:58 +1100
    Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-09 14:52 -0800
      Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-09 14:57 -0800
        Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-09 15:06 -0800
      Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-09 15:41 -0800
        Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-09 16:00 -0800
          Re: Those LYING scientists Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-03-10 06:20 +0000
        Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-09 22:22 -0800
        Re: Those LYING scientists Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-03-10 10:36 +0000
          Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-10 06:47 -0800
        Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-10 09:11 -0800
          Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-10 10:08 -0800
            Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-10 10:14 -0800
              Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-10 10:51 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-10 11:28 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-10 11:41 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-10 11:53 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists Elmer Shore <emt@rlerpnca.oc> - 2018-03-10 21:24 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists Elmer Shore <emt@rlerpnca.oc> - 2018-03-10 21:21 +0000
            Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-10 10:37 -0800
              Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-10 11:22 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-10 11:51 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-10 13:08 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-10 16:36 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-10 21:19 -0800
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-11 12:39 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-11 13:21 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-11 14:12 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-11 14:44 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-11 15:24 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 05:50 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Térov Balónky <iytn@yeicenlw.ik> - 2018-03-12 14:26 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-11 19:43 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-11 16:38 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Térov Balónky <iytn@yeicenlw.ik> - 2018-03-13 17:53 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-13 11:47 -0700
  Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-10 13:30 -0800
    Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-10 13:41 -0800
      Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-11 12:09 -0700
        Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-11 12:38 -0700
          Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-11 13:50 -0700
            Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-11 14:36 -0700
  Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-10 14:00 -0800
  Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-11 12:25 -0700
  Re: Those LYING scientists numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-03-11 14:18 -0700
  Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-11 14:27 -0700
  Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-12 07:36 -0700
    Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-12 08:07 -0700
    Re: Those LYING scientists Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-12 09:04 -0700
    Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 09:32 -0700
      Re: Those LYING scientists "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-03-12 20:04 +0100
        Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-13 09:39 -0700
          Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-13 21:47 -0700
            Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-13 22:32 -0700
              Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 14:17 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 16:32 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 16:50 -0700
    Re: Those LYING scientists The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2018-03-12 12:10 -0700
      Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-12 14:11 -0700
        Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 21:16 +0000
        Re: Those LYING scientists Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-12 16:50 -0700
          Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-12 22:26 -0700
    Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 13:23 -0700
      Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-12 14:24 -0700
        Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 16:56 -0700
    Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 16:40 -0700
  Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-12 14:38 -0700
    Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-12 14:50 -0700
    Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-12 14:53 -0700
    Re: Those LYING scientists Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-03-12 15:04 -0700
    Re: Those LYING scientists dancouriann@gmail.com - 2018-03-13 13:07 -0700
      Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-13 14:29 -0700
        Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-13 16:55 -0700
        Re: Those LYING scientists dancouriann@gmail.com - 2018-03-13 21:43 -0700
          Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-13 23:00 -0700
            Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 14:21 -0700
              Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 16:44 -0700
          Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-14 08:38 -0700
            Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-14 09:40 -0700
              Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-14 10:21 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-14 10:26 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 18:07 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-03-14 21:15 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-14 14:46 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 15:07 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-15 08:42 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 08:59 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@notmail.com> - 2018-03-15 17:48 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 10:09 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@notmail.com> - 2018-03-15 18:12 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-03-15 22:04 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@notmail.com> - 2018-03-15 22:51 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 23:34 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2018-03-15 18:27 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2018-03-15 18:34 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 19:49 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-15 10:18 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 19:49 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-03-15 21:55 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-15 14:06 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 14:17 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-03-16 10:42 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 22:16 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-15 05:12 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@notmail.com> - 2018-03-15 17:52 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 10:13 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-03-18 01:10 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-15 10:02 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@notmail.com> - 2018-03-15 18:07 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2018-03-15 14:23 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-15 06:36 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-15 10:12 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 13:34 -0700
            Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-14 10:15 -0700
            Re: Those LYING scientists Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-14 11:01 -0700
            Re: Those LYING scientists dancouriann@gmail.com - 2018-03-14 12:00 -0700
              Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-14 14:02 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists dancouriann@gmail.com - 2018-03-15 00:01 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-15 09:59 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists dancouriann@gmail.com - 2018-03-15 14:51 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists dancouriann@gmail.com - 2018-03-15 15:13 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-16 07:57 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-16 08:29 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-16 08:50 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists dancouriann@gmail.com - 2018-03-16 12:10 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-03-17 01:15 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-17 01:38 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists dancouriann@gmail.com - 2018-03-17 12:10 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-03-17 13:00 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists dancouriann@gmail.com - 2018-03-17 22:32 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-18 07:29 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists dancouriann@gmail.com - 2018-03-18 11:49 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-18 22:39 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists dancouriann@gmail.com - 2018-03-20 06:07 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-20 06:38 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-19 20:52 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists dancouriann@gmail.com - 2018-03-19 22:11 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-20 00:06 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-20 08:57 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-20 09:21 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-20 09:47 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-20 10:02 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 09:50 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Darryl Fletcher <lu@ewiwwe.tt> - 2018-03-20 19:10 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-20 11:45 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists dancouriann@gmail.com - 2018-03-20 21:43 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Paparios <mrios@ing.puc.cl> - 2018-03-21 05:30 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-21 07:46 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists dancouriann@gmail.com - 2018-03-21 15:25 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 05:50 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Darryl Fletcher <lu@ewiwwe.tt> - 2018-03-21 12:56 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-21 07:48 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 08:42 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-21 08:58 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-21 09:55 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 10:03 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-21 12:08 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 13:35 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-21 22:37 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-19 22:47 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-17 20:57 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Térov Balónky <iytn@yeicenlw.ik> - 2018-03-18 12:53 +0000
              Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 14:34 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 21:46 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 16:47 -0700
            Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 13:30 -0700
              Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-14 13:44 -0700
            Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 14:25 -0700
              Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-14 14:52 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 15:26 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 16:50 -0700
            Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 15:23 -0700
              Re: Those LYING scientists Térov Balónky <iytn@yeicenlw.ik> - 2018-03-14 23:10 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 16:50 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Térov Balónky <iytn@yeicenlw.ik> - 2018-03-15 11:11 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 06:28 -0700
              Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-15 07:45 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 15:06 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-15 08:38 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 16:47 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-15 14:52 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 23:11 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-16 07:43 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-16 20:03 +0000
              Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-15 08:53 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists pnalsing@gmail.com - 2018-03-15 10:13 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-15 13:23 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-03-15 21:50 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 14:09 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-15 14:26 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 14:35 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 14:45 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-15 14:13 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 14:29 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 19:49 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-15 13:21 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists benj <benj@nobody.net> - 2018-03-15 16:23 -0400
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-15 13:38 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-15 13:53 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-03-15 22:15 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 14:16 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 23:22 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-15 17:26 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-03-16 00:22 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-16 00:58 -0700
          Re: Those LYING scientists Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-03-14 23:18 -0500
            Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-14 22:51 -0700
              Re: Those LYING scientists JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-03-15 01:07 -0700
            Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-15 08:06 -0700
            Re: Those LYING scientists dancouriann@gmail.com - 2018-03-15 08:27 -0700
              Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-15 08:51 -0700
            Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-15 09:19 -0700
              Re: Those LYING scientists Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-03-17 10:08 -0500
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-17 08:20 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Térov Balónky <iytn@yeicenlw.ik> - 2018-03-17 17:07 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-17 11:19 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-17 11:54 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-17 19:09 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-17 14:34 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-17 15:12 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-18 10:08 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Darryl Fletcher <lu@ewiwwe.tt> - 2018-03-18 17:19 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-19 11:08 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-18 12:05 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-17 22:36 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-18 10:12 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-18 19:22 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-03-18 20:39 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-18 12:49 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-19 11:28 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-18 19:54 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-19 11:29 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-19 11:32 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@notmail.com> - 2018-03-18 21:18 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists Darryl Fletcher <lu@ewiwwe.tt> - 2018-03-18 21:12 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-19 11:24 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-03-19 19:29 +0100
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-19 19:53 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-19 13:18 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-18 13:42 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2018-03-19 11:20 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-19 19:41 +0000
                Re: Those LYING scientists mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-19 13:47 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2018-03-17 13:49 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists rotchm <rotchm@gmail.com> - 2018-03-17 14:26 -0700
                Re: Those LYING scientists Térov Balónky <iytn@yeicenlw.ik> - 2018-03-18 12:46 +0000
      Re: Those LYING scientists Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-13 18:07 -0700
      Re: Those LYING scientists RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> - 2018-03-15 20:44 -0700
  Those LYING scientists "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-14 13:35 -0700
  Re: Those LYING scientists Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-03-16 16:38 +0000
  Re: Those LYING scientists numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-03-19 12:32 -0700
  Re: Those LYING scientists numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-03-20 14:02 -0700
  Re: Those LYING scientists numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-03-21 17:10 -0700
    Re: Those LYING scientists Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-03-23 21:16 +0000

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