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Re: rolling dice is not random?

Cross-posted to 6 groups.

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On 10/21/2015 09:04 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
> On 22/10/2015 11:12 AM, Dale wrote:
>> On 10/21/2015 06:45 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>> On 22/10/2015 8:47 AM, Dale wrote:
>>>> assuming determinism means nothing is random, everything is bounded by
>>>> cause and effect
>>>
>>> Probably - but who is assuming determinism?
>>>
>>> What point are you actually trying to make here?
>>>
>>> Sylvia.
>>
>> maybe mutations can't be random
>
> Every indication we have is that quantum mechanical processes are
> random. That leaks into evolution by such processes as:
>
> a) Cosmic rays arriving at random and impacting DNA molecules.
>
> b) Radioactive decay in the environment and tissues surrounding DNA
> molecules randomly emitting particles that interact with DNA.
>
> c) Radioactive decay within DNA when it happens to contain an unstable
> isotope of an atom.
>
> d) Transcription errors when the wrong chemical reaction occurs because,
> although it is unlikely, it is not impossible.
>
> And who knows how many others.
>
> Given the clear evidence that DNA dictates the form of a creature, it's
> inevitable that these random changes to the DNA will cause mutations,
> and it's equally inevitable that some of these mutations will be
> beneficial.
>
> To bring God into the picture, you have to have Him either controlling
> the quantum mechanical processes, or actively removing the beneficial
> mutations in favour of specific changes He wants. That's a stretch,
> given that it seems clear that things would happen the way they are even
> in the absence of His intervention.
>
> Sylvia
>
>

lots of good stuff, I would have to study to reply well

I'll resort to philosophy and put the full reply on the back-burner for 
a short while

you can't put randomness in determinism, unless time is a continuum and 
random things always existed and need no cause, random things have no cause

even cyclical debates would have to attribute past tense of random 
nature to present, or they would fall into a cycle of last effect being 
first cause and random objects have no cause

finite time binds the end to the beginning and a random object cannot be 
bound to a beginning because it has no cause

it may be a question as to whether the reader is a determinist, your 
assertions of random nature fall into the non-determinist category 
except for the continuum time case

I at least believe in the psychological/sociological/psychiatric value 
of what may just be metaphor/parable/etc. of spirituality, its faith, I 
know it, but isn't empiricism the same? especially with no determinism? 
if there are a bunch of random things happening there is nothing to say 
the Sun won't rise tomorrow as it did today

-- 
Dale
http://www.dalekelly.org

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rolling dice is not random? Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2015-10-21 17:47 -0400
  Re: rolling dice is not random? Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-10-22 09:45 +1100
    Re: rolling dice is not random? Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2015-10-21 20:12 -0400
      Re: rolling dice is not random? Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-10-22 12:04 +1100
        Re: rolling dice is not random? Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2015-10-21 22:21 -0400
          Re: "Life" is virtual, not real. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-10-22 18:56 +1100
            Re: "Life" is virtual, not real. "Andrew" <andrew.321remov@usa.net> - 2015-10-22 03:09 -0700
            Re: "Life" is virtual, not real. Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2015-10-22 16:36 -0400
              Re: "Life" is virtual, not real. Olrik <olrik666@gmail.com> - 2015-10-22 23:49 -0400
            Re: The Ensemble Interpretation. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-10-23 11:32 +1100
              Re: The Ensemble Interpretation. Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2015-10-22 20:40 -0400
                Re: The Ensemble Interpretation. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-10-23 11:50 +1100
              Re: Quantum Mechanics is statistical, not real. lucaspa <lucaspa@optonline.net> - 2015-10-24 11:21 -0700
              Re: Quantum Mechanics is statistical, not real. lucaspa <lucaspa@optonline.net> - 2015-10-24 11:34 -0700
          Re: "Life" is virtual, not real. The BORG <borg@future.com> - 2015-10-24 15:27 +0100
            Re: "Life" is virtual, not real. lucaspa <lucaspa@optonline.net> - 2015-10-24 11:13 -0700
            Re: "Life" is virtual, not real. Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2015-10-25 13:54 +1100
        Re: rolling dice is not random? lucaspa <lucaspa@optonline.net> - 2015-10-23 12:04 -0700
        Re: rolling dice is not random? lucaspa <lucaspa@optonline.net> - 2015-10-23 12:07 -0700
      Re: rolling dice is not random? lucaspa <lucaspa@optonline.net> - 2015-10-23 11:54 -0700
  Re: rolling dice is not random? bilgat@m.nu - 2015-10-21 18:46 -0500
    Re: rolling dice is not random? Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2015-10-21 20:13 -0400
  Re: rolling dice is not random? Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2015-10-21 22:48 -0400
    Re: rolling dice is not random? John Ritson <j.ritson@hotmail.co.uk> - 2015-10-22 09:57 +0100
      Re: rolling dice is not random? Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2015-10-22 16:32 -0400
        Re: rolling dice is not random? John Ritson <j.ritson@hotmail.co.uk> - 2015-10-22 22:53 +0100
          Re: rolling dice is not random? Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2015-10-22 19:36 -0400
            Re: rolling dice is not random? John Ritson <j.ritson@hotmail.co.uk> - 2015-10-23 10:26 +0100
              Re: rolling dice is not random? "Kadaitcha Man" <nospam.nospam.nospam@sci.research.careers.i.have.shorter.stature.can.i.grow.taller> - 2015-10-24 09:56 +0000
  Re: rolling dice is not random? Hans Wussel <hanswussel@openmailbox.org> - 2015-10-22 19:40 +0200
    Re: rolling dice is not random? Dale <dale@dalekelly.org> - 2015-10-22 16:38 -0400
  Re: rolling dice is not random? lucaspa <lucaspa@optonline.net> - 2015-10-23 11:42 -0700

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