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Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it

From Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it
Date 2015-10-27 13:24 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <87y4eoigva.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References (3 earlier) <df0a7329-be47-4e24-80b0-35f6053400b3@googlegroups.com> <n0j8ha$du9$1@dont-email.me> <n0mdfd$bbe$1@dont-email.me> <slrnn2urkt.5q5.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid> <n0nrhi$cdk$1@dont-email.me>

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Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> writes:

> On 27/10/15 12:31, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>> On Mon, 2015-10-26, Bartc wrote:
>>> On 25/10/2015 18:56, Richard Heathfield wrote:
<snip>
>>>> Write a program that displays only the /last/ n lines of its input.
>>>> (Harder.)
>>>
>>> Very hard I would have thought. What do you mean by 'its input'?
>>>
>>> If that's interactive input, then it can go on for ever.
>>
>> Then it would simply not output anything.
>> This is basically the Unix tail(1) command, and how it works.
>>
>>> Also, clearly your exercises only make sense where the 'input' is
>>> actually a true line-oriented file where all lines are of 'reasonable'
>>> length, and where 'n' is also a 'reasonable' value. But I suspect too
>>> much of the code would be preoccupied with dealing with unreasonable input.
>>
>> Just be a little careful with the word "unreasonable": if I were to
>> give this as an exercise, I'd state that it was ok for the program to
>> abort on lines over 100 characters (or something)
>
> I'd go further than that, and say that it was okay for the programmer
> to *assume* that lines would be no longer than a certain length, and
> that n (the number of lines to print) would be no higher than a
> certain number...

I think that's a little odd.  That might be the Pascal way (I don't
recall) but it seems an odd design to force on someone learning C.  Line
oriented input is a pain in C and using it adds another failure mode to
the program.

I'd suggest the student limit only the number of bytes to buffer since
the purpose of a limit is simply to avoid teaching about growing buffers
too soon.  There's no obvious advantage (unless I'm missing it) to
limiting both line length and the maximum number of lines.

<snip>
>> but if I used a tail
>> utility and it didn't cope with thousands of characters, I'd be
>> disappointed: that wouldn't be "reasonable" in that context.
>
> Yep. The key point is that a fundamental distinction must be made
> between throwaway academic exercises and robust software tools.

I'm worried by that idea, as least in the way it's phrases.  I think the
distinction should be *minimised* wherever possible.  That involves
carefully choosing exercises so that it is not necessary to make too
many unrealistic simplifications, and to teach, wherever possible, "best
practise".  That's hard to define, of course, but I mean, very roughly,
best practice given the fewest simplify assumptions about the program's
overall design.

We are probably not too far apart on this point but the way you phrase
it suggests you might be happy with what, for me, would be unacceptable
designs, because you've put a huge wall between throwaway academic
exercises and properly usable tools.  I believe one should try to make
as little distinction between these as is practical.

-- 
Ben.

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Thread

Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2015-10-24 02:17 -0700
  Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-10-24 03:29 -0700
    Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2015-10-24 03:38 -0700
  Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-10-24 04:30 -0700
    Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-10-24 12:04 +0000
  Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-10-24 04:59 -0700
    Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-24 14:28 +0100
      Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-10-24 07:26 -0700
        Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-24 17:06 +0100
  Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-10-24 11:56 -0400
    Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-24 12:02 -0700
      Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-24 15:45 -0700
        Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-24 16:28 -0700
          Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-10-24 16:44 -0700
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-24 19:34 -0700
          Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-24 19:30 -0700
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-24 20:33 -0700
          Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-28 11:16 -0700
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-10-28 15:12 -0400
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-10-29 12:18 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-10-29 21:51 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-30 08:38 -0700
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-30 05:34 -0700
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-28 14:08 -0700
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-30 06:14 -0700
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-28 21:50 +0000
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-28 15:08 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-28 22:47 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-28 18:35 -0500
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-28 18:12 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-29 01:35 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-10-28 21:12 -0500
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-28 19:52 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-28 18:01 -0700
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-30 03:47 -0700
  Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@dqel.com> - 2015-10-24 09:54 -0700
  Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-24 12:13 -0700
  Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-24 21:50 +0100
  Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2015-10-25 04:04 -0700
    Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@dqel.com> - 2015-10-25 08:32 -0700
      Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-25 18:19 +0000
      Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2015-10-25 11:30 -0700
        Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-25 18:56 +0000
          Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2015-10-25 20:59 -0700
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Anand Hariharan <mailto.anand.hariharan@gmail.com> - 2015-10-25 21:49 -0700
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-26 08:10 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Anand Hariharan <mailto.anand.hariharan@gmail.com> - 2015-10-26 16:05 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-27 00:34 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-27 09:04 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-27 21:24 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-10-26 18:16 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-27 02:33 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-27 09:08 -0700
          Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-26 11:22 +0000
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-26 11:35 +0000
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-26 17:00 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-26 17:59 +0000
          Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-26 07:55 -0700
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-26 17:06 +0000
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-26 10:56 -0700
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-26 20:14 +0000
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-26 17:09 -0700
          Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-10-26 23:39 +0000
            Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-10-27 12:31 +0000
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-27 12:45 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-27 13:24 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-27 13:41 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-10-27 19:43 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-27 19:47 +0000
              Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-10-27 13:20 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-10-27 13:28 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-10-27 13:54 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-27 07:51 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-10-27 16:46 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-27 10:52 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-10-27 18:51 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-27 12:17 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-10-27 19:34 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-27 13:10 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-27 13:41 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-10-27 23:11 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-27 19:02 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-10-28 07:09 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-10-28 11:27 +0000
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-10-27 12:27 -0700
                Re: Issues with setting variables to true or false: how does the compiler understands it supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-10-27 13:18 -0700

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