Re: Embedded platforms for beginners?

From	Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: Embedded platforms for beginners?
Date	2017-09-05 17:10 -0700
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<87vakwlm9m.fsf@nightsong.com> (permalink)
References	(10 earlier) <2i5rB.35182$OC1.2645@fx06.iad> <87o9qrm3xw.fsf@nightsong.com> <CV5rB.34451$WI2.28011@fx38.iad> <oom4gs$57r$1@dont-email.me> <b0jtqctem62cf5ue86k91n6pii7she0atb@4ax.com>

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George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> writes:
> In the broader programming world, the average skill level is just
> slightly above "script kiddy".  The headlong march to "managed"
> languages such as Java, C#, Python, etc. is industry acknowledging
> that the average programmer simply can't write a complex program
> without hand-holding.

I'm not ready to think of the Lisp pioneers who developed and used most
of today's GC techniques as "script kiddies".  Here's what
E. W. Dijkstra said about Lisp in his Turing award lecture, all the way
back in 1972:

    With a few very basic principles at its foundation, it [LISP] has
    shown a remarkable stability. Besides that, LISP has been the
    carrier for a considerable number of in a sense our most
    sophisticated computer applications. LISP has jokingly been
    described as “the most intelligent way to misuse a computer”. I
    think that description a great compliment because it transmits the
    full flavour of liberation: it has assisted a number of our most
    gifted fellow humans in thinking previously impossible thoughts.

There are certainly times when GC imposes unacceptable costs, and maybe
those times happen more in embedded programming than in other kinds of
programming.  But if the hardware can accomodate it and it helps do the
job faster, why would anyone not use it?  

I worked on a thing a few years ago that had around $50K of software NRE
(Python) and used $300 worth of hardware including two ARM processors.
By writing it in C maybe we could have spent $10 less per hardware unit,
but at least 3x more on programming, plus the time-to-market delay, loss
of feature flexibility, etc.  We'd have to ship quite a lot of units to
even think of switching to that approach.  And I think it would have
been silly to use C from the beginning, instead of using it for an
eventual cost reduction once we had gotten experience from multiple
generations of fielded units programmed in Python.

Obviously not all situations are like that.  But I think it is getting
more and more typical.

Thread

Embedded platforms for beginners? Elof Huang <elof.huang@runbox.com> - 2017-09-01 14:07 +0800
  Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Jack <jack4747@gmail.com> - 2017-08-31 23:22 -0700
  Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-09-01 04:10 -0400
  Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-09-01 21:49 +1000
    Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Elof Huang <elof.huang@runbox.com> - 2017-09-02 11:57 +0800
      Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-09-02 18:25 +1000
        Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Elof Huang <elof.huang@runbox.com> - 2017-09-03 15:37 +0800
          Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-09-03 17:54 +1000
          Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-09-03 13:49 -0400
    Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-09-02 11:41 -0400
      Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-09-03 09:44 +1000
        Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-09-02 20:39 -0400
          Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-09-03 11:16 +1000
        Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-09-02 18:21 -0700
          Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-09-03 14:26 +1000
            Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-09-03 02:14 -0400
              Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-09-03 17:52 +1000
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-09-03 13:50 -0400
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-09-03 22:20 -0700
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-09-05 22:06 -0400
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-09-06 12:21 +1000
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-09-05 22:42 -0400
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-09-06 14:26 +1000
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2017-09-06 01:20 -0400
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-09-03 15:58 -0400
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-09-04 08:00 +1000
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-09-03 19:13 -0400
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-09-04 09:58 +1000
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-09-03 20:16 -0400
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-09-04 15:13 +1000
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-09-03 22:24 -0700
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-09-04 15:55 +1000
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-09-05 14:15 +0200
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2017-09-05 12:35 -0400
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@highlandtechnology.invalid> - 2017-09-05 10:02 -0700
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-09-05 18:13 +0100
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-09-06 10:24 +0200
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-09-05 17:10 -0700
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-09-06 09:57 +0200
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-09-05 16:57 -0700
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-09-05 16:54 -0700
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-09-06 12:31 +1000
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-09-05 19:42 -0700
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-09-05 10:16 +0200
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-09-05 16:56 -0400
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-09-04 10:46 +0100
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-09-05 17:09 -0400
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-09-05 19:35 -0700
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-09-06 12:40 +1000
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-09-06 00:42 -0400
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-09-06 08:55 +0100
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-09-06 08:45 +0100
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-09-07 20:23 -0400
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-09-08 08:42 +0100
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-09-08 12:07 +0200
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-09-08 11:40 +0100
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-09-08 13:24 +0200
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-09-08 13:36 +0100
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-09-09 13:16 -0400
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-09-10 08:53 -0500
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2017-09-10 20:18 +0300
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-09-11 21:24 -0400
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-09-15 22:22 -0500
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-09-18 11:26 -0400
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-09-18 18:26 +0100
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> - 2017-09-19 14:27 -0400
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-09-18 18:24 +0100
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-09-03 22:30 -0700
                Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-09-04 15:51 +1000
            Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2017-09-03 22:04 -0700
      Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? kristoff <kristoff@skypro.be> - 2017-09-05 17:56 +0200
        Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Luke A. Guest <laguest@archeia.com> - 2017-09-10 17:10 +0100
  Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? tarjei99@gmail.com - 2017-09-10 05:49 -0700
    Re: Embedded platforms for beginners? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2017-09-10 09:03 -0500

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