Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory

From	Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups	sci.math
Subject	Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory
Date	2023-06-26 15:42 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<87jzvq2sl0.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References	(14 earlier) <950588a6-97cf-4c6f-8c0e-ffd5f1e49f62n@googlegroups.com> <875y7b5bcv.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <62868b01-9fe4-4525-a8ea-029b4669393an@googlegroups.com> <87cz1j3ron.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <8a219cc1-df47-45bb-a4a0-ab5f08c6b5ebn@googlegroups.com>

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Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> writes:

> On Monday, June 26, 2023 at 4:04:18 AM UTC+2, Ben Bacarisse wrote:

>> but I don't think that's what he means.
>
> Oh really? So WHAT does "Most fractions are without index" mean in you
> book? Huh?!

What matters is what he means, not what I mean!  What he means will vary
from day to day and will sometimes depend on where in a circular
argument he currently stands.

I think today he is as the point where k is not a "finished" function
but a process where, at every step, only finitely many fractions have an
index and infinite many are without one.  And in WM-land, that which is
true ate very step is just true.  I would guess that the domain and
range are not in question today.

If and when this point of view becomes untenable, the dark numbers will
pop back and NxN will have "most" fraction dark about which inductive
proofs can say nothing.  NxN will still have infinitely many unindexed
elements, but you won't be able to find any or even prove that there
exist (not that the don't) because... dark.

If he can be persuaded that N, and hence NxN, can have nothing in it
other than what we say, the process view will pop back.

> Btw. we already had this discussion in de.sci.mathematik.
>
> Hint: There he even denied that f(n) = n (f: IN --> IN) is a bijective
> function from IN onto IN. Reason: There are no bijections between
> infinite sets. ("They are not possible ") Period.

I've also already had this discussion (more than once).  For example:

WM: k = (m + n - 1)(m + n - 2)/2 + m.

Me: I.e. k(n,m) is a bijection from NxN to N, a fact provable by any
    student who has read your textbook. Do you agree that such a student
    could prove this fact?

WM: Of course.

The textbook also includes examples.  Specifically it states that f(x) =
x (where f is from N to N) is bijective.

> Hence k is not a bijection from IN x IN --> IN, no matter what you
> say.

That depends on what he means by a set and by a bjection today!  k is
provably bijective or it does not exist.  Take you pick.

-- 
Ben.

Thread

The mathematical constraints of set theory Peter Peters <pp1585024@gmail.com> - 2023-06-14 03:35 -0700
  Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Guckie <alberstein@freenet.de> - 2023-06-14 16:36 +0300
    Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-14 07:45 -0700
      Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-06-14 08:20 -0700
      Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-14 16:30 +0100
        Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-14 11:45 -0700
          Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-14 22:13 +0100
            Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-06-14 18:07 -0700
              Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-15 06:24 -0700
            Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-15 05:50 -0700
              Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-15 17:36 +0100
        Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-06-14 13:51 -0700
          Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-14 22:19 +0100
      Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory "Socratis T.n.p." <andreasorrentino128@gmail.com> - 2023-06-23 04:44 -0700
        Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory "Socratis T.n.p." <andreasorrentino128@gmail.com> - 2023-06-23 10:39 -0700
        Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory "Socratis T.n.p." <andreasorrentino128@gmail.com> - 2023-06-27 09:00 -0700
    Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-15 06:13 -0700
  Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-14 15:45 +0100
    Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-14 10:08 -0700
      Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-16 01:44 +0100
        Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-16 08:03 -0700
          Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-16 08:29 -0700
            Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-06-16 09:03 -0700
            Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> - 2023-06-16 13:30 -0400
              Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-16 12:08 -0700
            Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-17 06:26 -0700
              Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-17 09:18 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-18 05:57 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-18 07:01 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 06:13 -0700
              Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-17 10:09 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Gus Gassmann <horand.gassmann@gmail.com> - 2023-06-17 10:58 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-18 06:09 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-18 09:40 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 05:05 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Gus Gassmann <horand.gassmann@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 06:15 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 06:22 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Gus Gassmann <horand.gassmann@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 06:38 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Gus Gassmann <horand.gassmann@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 06:40 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theoryn Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 08:24 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theoryn Gus Gassmann <horand.gassmann@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 09:11 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theoryn Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 11:27 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theoryn Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 11:44 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theoryn Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 12:07 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theoryn Gus Gassmann <horand.gassmann@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 12:12 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theoryn Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-20 06:43 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theoryn Gus Gassmann <horand.gassmann@gmail.com> - 2023-06-20 06:53 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-19 16:47 +0100
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Dieter Heidorn <d.heidorn@t-online.de> - 2023-06-19 20:11 +0200
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-20 00:08 +0100
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-20 08:49 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-23 02:35 +0100
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-23 10:09 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-23 10:19 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-26 01:13 +0100
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-25 18:35 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-26 03:04 +0100
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-25 19:52 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-25 19:54 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-26 15:42 +0100
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-27 08:39 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-28 02:43 +0100
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-28 04:32 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-28 15:16 +0100
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-28 07:48 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-28 16:43 +0100
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-28 09:49 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-06-29 09:59 -0400
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-30 13:04 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-06-30 18:09 -0400
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-30 15:18 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-30 15:25 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory FromTheRafters <FTR@nomail.afraid.org> - 2023-06-30 18:53 -0400
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-30 16:42 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-07-01 10:19 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-07-01 14:06 -0400
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 07:52 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 09:48 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 10:39 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 13:45 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 14:09 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-07-02 14:08 -0400
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 07:01 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-07-03 13:09 -0400
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-07-04 08:33 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-07-04 18:43 -0400
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-07-05 02:50 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-07-05 10:39 -0400
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-07-05 08:45 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-07-05 13:14 -0400
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-07-06 06:27 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-07-09 06:41 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-07-09 07:58 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-07-10 02:40 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Tom Bola <Tom@bolamail.etc> - 2023-07-01 20:23 +0200
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-07-01 11:44 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 07:43 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-07-02 08:42 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-07-03 06:52 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-07-01 11:56 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-28 09:34 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-25 20:21 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-28 09:46 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 08:11 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Gus Gassmann <horand.gassmann@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 08:20 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 06:18 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 07:12 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-20 08:45 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-20 10:38 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-20 14:39 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-18 06:04 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-06-19 09:34 -0400
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-20 08:44 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-06-20 13:31 -0400
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-20 14:37 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-20 15:03 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-20 15:05 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-21 06:53 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-21 06:50 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-21 07:37 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-22 06:13 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-06-20 20:34 -0400
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-21 06:59 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-06-21 11:58 -0400
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-22 06:19 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-06-22 12:30 -0400
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-22 10:38 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-22 20:18 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-23 10:06 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-23 10:17 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-23 10:24 -0700
    Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-15 06:16 -0700
      Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Gus Gassmann <horand.gassmann@gmail.com> - 2023-06-15 09:50 -0700
        Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-15 14:00 -0700
      Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-16 01:28 +0100
        Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-16 07:50 -0700
          Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-18 02:13 +0100
            Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-18 06:19 -0700
              Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-20 01:26 +0100
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-20 07:09 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-20 15:38 +0100
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-20 12:32 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-06-20 14:05 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Timothy Golden <timbandtech@gmail.com> - 2023-06-21 04:43 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-20 14:33 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2023-06-23 02:56 +0100
          Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2023-06-17 18:34 -0700
  Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-06-14 16:50 -0700
  Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-06-14 20:19 -0400
  Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-06-15 17:08 -0400
    Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-06-16 07:45 -0700
      Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-06-16 14:58 -0400
  Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Jim Burns <james.g.burns@att.net> - 2023-06-15 18:56 -0400
  Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Archimedes Plutonium <plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com> - 2023-06-19 08:37 -0700
  Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Archimedes Plutonium <plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com> - 2023-06-23 11:16 -0700
  Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory "zelos...@gmail.com" <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2023-07-05 00:23 -0700
    Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-07-05 02:54 -0700
      Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory "zelos...@gmail.com" <zelos.malum@gmail.com> - 2023-07-05 09:36 -0700
        Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-07-06 05:29 -0700
          Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-07-09 08:09 -0700
            Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-07-10 02:42 -0700
              Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Gus Gassmann <horand.gassmann@gmail.com> - 2023-07-10 04:14 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory WM <askasker48@gmail.com> - 2023-07-10 07:27 -0700
                Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Gus Gassmann <horand.gassmann@gmail.com> - 2023-07-10 07:57 -0700
  Re: The mathematical constraints of set theory Fritz Feldhase <franz.fritschee.ff@gmail.com> - 2023-07-05 07:48 -0700

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