Re: Coding style for small if statements

From	Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Coding style for small if statements
Date	2020-02-10 15:46 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<87h7zyjvi2.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References	(13 earlier) <x200G.861064$GFe.306443@fx12.am4> <87sgjjjk4w.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <r1r5qn$81d$1@dont-email.me> <yPa0G.806802$CO7.489605@fx36.am4> <r1rftm$4fc$1@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:

> On 10/02/2020 12:07, Bart wrote:
>> On 10/02/2020 08:55, David Brown wrote:
>>> On 10/02/2020 02:39, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Rather than mandate {}s all over the place, I would prefer to
>>>> concentrate on the procedures for version control and testing.  But
>>>> that's because I don't like visual clutter and I do like having reliable
>>>> procedures.
>>>>
>>>
>>> My preference is to use /both/, so that mistakes are less likely to be
>>> missed.
>>>
>>> I don't like visual clutter either, but I don't see braces as visual
>>> clutter - I see them as a simple and consistent way of arranging code
>>> that works well with indentation.  But of course habit and familiarity
>>> is a key part of what any one person finds "visual clutter".
>>>
>> 
>> It /is/ extra clutter compared with some styles of block delimiting (as
>> used in other languages not just C).
>> 
>> For example, having to write "} else {" instead of just "else" in
>> patterns like this (exprs/statements not shown):
>> 
>>   if ( ) { } else { }        # C, 8 framing tokens
>> 
>>   if then else fi            # Algol68-inspired, 4 framing tokens
>> 
>> This is why it's tempting in C to just write:
>> 
>>   if ( ) else
>> 
>> when possible. It comes down to language design choices that were not
>> the best.
>
> The language design in C is consistent - the braces give you a way to
> take a series of statements and declarations and make them into a single
> compound statement.  This is a useful feature in a language, which can
> then be re-used in many circumstances.

This is not in doubt.  What being questioned is the fact that you have
to use the.  Algol 68 has begin and end but you don't often need them.

> When you make different choices in a language design, you have different
> tradeoffs.  If you have a language that makes it simple and convenient
> to write things you want to write, it will also make it easy to
> accidentally write things that you want to be illegal in the language.

I don't get this at all.  C makes requires you to all {}s to prevent the
kind fo accidents you seem to think are worth preventing.  They can't
happen in a language that closes ifs and loops and you don't need to add
begin and end.

> If you make it tight enough to block more of the things you want to be
> flagged as a mistake, it will make some things you want to write more
> verbose.

Again, I'm lost.  Maybe you could give an example.  Is, say,

  if C1 then S1 elif C2 then S2 else s3 fi

tight enough to block the things you want flagged as mistakes?  If so,
what things are more verbose?  In C, with your insistence on {}s to
prevent mistakes, this becomes

  if ( C1 ) { S1 } else { if ( C2 ) { S2 } else { S3 } }

> You regularly claim C has bad design for things like this.  I don't see
> it as a "bad" language, just that it allows some bad coding.  But /all/
> languages allow bad coding.

But the odd thing here is that you've been arguing about adding {}s to
prevent some mistakes where many languages simply can't have those
mistakes.  They don't need the programmer to follow rules about adding
syntactically redundant elements.  Languages like Algol 68 and Ada were
designed with exactly your concerns in mind.  Do they really not meet
your concerns?

<cut>
-- 
Ben.

Thread

Coding style for small if statements Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2020-01-31 23:46 +0300
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2020-01-31 23:54 +0300
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-01-31 19:13 -0600
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 07:52 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2020-02-01 00:06 +0300
    Re: Coding style for small if statements mathog <dmathog@gmail.com> - 2020-02-28 10:20 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2020-01-31 16:28 -0500
  Re: Coding style for small if statements donalhambra@gmail.com - 2020-02-01 04:55 -0800
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-01 17:16 +0000
      Re: Coding style for small if statements luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2020-02-02 11:03 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-03 02:20 +0000
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-02-03 05:17 +0100
        Re: Coding style for small if statements chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2020-02-03 04:07 -0800
          Re: Coding style for small if statements luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2020-02-03 12:59 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2020-02-03 20:54 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements nobody@example.org (Scott) - 2020-02-01 16:44 +0000
  Re: Coding style for small if statements already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2020-02-02 04:40 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-02 15:47 +0100
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-03 23:56 +0000
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 05:34 -0800
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-16 16:17 +0000
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 08:28 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2020-02-03 21:52 -0800
    Re: Coding style for small if statements skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2020-02-03 22:07 -0800
      Re: Coding style for small if statements skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2020-02-03 22:22 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2020-02-03 22:25 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-05 02:35 +0000
          Re: Coding style for small if statements James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-04 20:20 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-05 01:04 -0500
            Re: Coding style for small if statements James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-05 01:05 -0500
  Re: Coding style for small if statements John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2020-02-05 12:50 -0800
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-05 23:36 +0000
      Re: Coding style for small if statements John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2020-02-06 15:01 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-02-06 15:43 -0800
          Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-07 11:02 +0100
            Re: Coding style for small if statements scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-02-07 15:24 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-07 23:03 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-02-07 23:59 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-08 00:16 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-02-08 02:26 +0000
          Re: Coding style for small if statements Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-02-08 17:07 -0600
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-08 23:17 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-02-08 18:32 -0600
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-02-09 09:32 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 07:10 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-07 01:26 +0000
          Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-07 11:30 +0100
            Re: Coding style for small if statements chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2020-02-07 05:36 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-07 23:36 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-08 17:20 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 02:07 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-09 13:01 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-09 13:26 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 15:53 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-09 17:03 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 15:35 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2020-02-09 18:07 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 21:17 +0000
                Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-11 07:19 +0000
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-02-10 23:40 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-12 12:24 +0000
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-11 11:30 +0000
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-02-11 09:41 -0700
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-12 08:12 -0500
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-14 21:18 +0000
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 00:01 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-22 05:22 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-02 07:57 -0700
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-02 08:28 -0700
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) jadill33@gmail.com - 2020-02-12 07:56 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2020-02-12 08:57 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-14 21:31 +0000
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) jadill33@gmail.com - 2020-02-14 14:10 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-15 03:06 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-09 19:45 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 21:50 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-09 22:51 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-10 01:39 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-10 09:55 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-10 11:07 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-10 12:48 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-10 13:13 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-10 15:15 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-10 15:46 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-09 18:18 -0800
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-10 09:12 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-10 14:51 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-10 16:19 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-09 21:00 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 21:29 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2020-02-09 17:14 -0800
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 21:15 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-09 18:43 -0500
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-10 01:25 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 01:19 -0800
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 05:43 -0800
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-16 14:01 +0000
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 08:34 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2020-02-07 15:25 +0100
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-02-07 07:22 -0800
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2020-02-14 15:21 +0300
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-14 13:35 +0000
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2020-02-14 14:43 +0100
          Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-15 12:08 +0100
          Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-20 10:10 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-20 19:58 +0100
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 05:55 -0800
    Re: Coding style for small if statements scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-02-07 15:26 +0000
      Re: Coding style for small if statements luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2020-02-07 17:47 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements jadill33@gmail.com - 2020-02-10 07:09 -0800
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 06:30 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-16 16:14 +0100
          Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-16 16:40 +0000
            Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-16 17:48 +0100
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2020-02-16 17:14 -0600
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-03-30 00:27 -0700
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Ike Naar <ike@sdf.lonestar.org> - 2020-02-16 18:39 +0000
          Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-16 20:37 +0000
            Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-17 09:09 +0100
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-02-17 05:32 -0800
              Re: Coding style for small if statements scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-02-17 18:07 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-17 23:48 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-02-17 20:40 -0500
          Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-23 10:14 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2020-02-23 20:16 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-03-29 18:56 -0700
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ike Naar <ike@sdf.lonestar.org> - 2020-03-30 06:07 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-03-30 06:45 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-03-30 10:50 +0200
                Re: Coding style for small if statements gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2020-03-30 13:04 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-03-30 06:17 -0700
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-04 14:09 -0700
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-18 02:09 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelberger@nowhere.net> - 2020-02-10 01:47 +0000
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-02-12 17:54 +0100
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-20 07:18 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-02-29 03:30 -0800

csiph-web