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Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements)

From Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements)
Date 2020-02-15 03:06 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <87k14oft0z.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References (10 earlier) <87zhdrlqns.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <r1pe93$1cco$1@gioia.aioe.org> <slrnr44lcg.km3.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid> <slrnr4e4co.km3.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid> <717d8844-50ee-4efa-afe7-dd6d475e0bca@googlegroups.com>

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jadill33@gmail.com writes:

> On Friday, February 14, 2020 at 4:31:13 PM UTC-5, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>> On Tue, 2020-02-11, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>> > On Sun, 2020-02-09, Manfred wrote:
>> >> On 2/9/2020 4:35 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> >>> Of course, no one determines pre- and post-conditions these days and I
>> >>> accept that that is now a lost art, 
>> >
>> >> If it is of any relief, that's not my experience.
>> >>
>> >>> but in my very limited experience, I've found more bugs from simple
>> >>> and informal reasoning about code than I ever found through
>> >>> testing.
>> >
>> > Me too. The only way I know to understand code is in terms of
>> > preconditions and invariants.  I never write it down though and I
>> > rarely speak about it.
>> >
>> > I assume everyone else does this too, but I cannot be sure.
>> 
>> I asked some of my younger coworkers.  They were only vaguely familiar
>> with the terms "precondition", "postcondition" and "invariant".  One
>> guy remembered them vaguely from the C++ Core Guidelines[0].  Another
>> (who's an excellent troubleshooter) agreed maybe he thinks in terms of
>> which conditions hold where.
>> 
>> Then we had to get back to work, so it's still unclear to me if it's a
>> lost art or not.
>
> The problem with design by contract is that there isn't great support
> for it for the C language.

True.  A methodology like design by contract would benefit from good
support in your tools.

But, just to be clear for readers who might be getting confused, the
topic was not contracts but reasoning about code.

<cut example>
-- 
Ben.

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Coding style for small if statements Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2020-01-31 23:46 +0300
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2020-01-31 23:54 +0300
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-01-31 19:13 -0600
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 07:52 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@gmail.com> - 2020-02-01 00:06 +0300
    Re: Coding style for small if statements mathog <dmathog@gmail.com> - 2020-02-28 10:20 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2020-01-31 16:28 -0500
  Re: Coding style for small if statements donalhambra@gmail.com - 2020-02-01 04:55 -0800
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-01 17:16 +0000
      Re: Coding style for small if statements luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2020-02-02 11:03 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-03 02:20 +0000
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-02-03 05:17 +0100
        Re: Coding style for small if statements chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2020-02-03 04:07 -0800
          Re: Coding style for small if statements luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2020-02-03 12:59 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2020-02-03 20:54 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements nobody@example.org (Scott) - 2020-02-01 16:44 +0000
  Re: Coding style for small if statements already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2020-02-02 04:40 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-02 15:47 +0100
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-03 23:56 +0000
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 05:34 -0800
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-16 16:17 +0000
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 08:28 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2020-02-03 21:52 -0800
    Re: Coding style for small if statements skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2020-02-03 22:07 -0800
      Re: Coding style for small if statements skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2020-02-03 22:22 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements skybuck2000@hotmail.com - 2020-02-03 22:25 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-05 02:35 +0000
          Re: Coding style for small if statements James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-04 20:20 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-05 01:04 -0500
            Re: Coding style for small if statements James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-05 01:05 -0500
  Re: Coding style for small if statements John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2020-02-05 12:50 -0800
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-05 23:36 +0000
      Re: Coding style for small if statements John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2020-02-06 15:01 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2020-02-06 15:43 -0800
          Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-07 11:02 +0100
            Re: Coding style for small if statements scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-02-07 15:24 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-07 23:03 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-02-07 23:59 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-08 00:16 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-02-08 02:26 +0000
          Re: Coding style for small if statements Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-02-08 17:07 -0600
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-08 23:17 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2020-02-08 18:32 -0600
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-02-09 09:32 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 07:10 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-07 01:26 +0000
          Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-07 11:30 +0100
            Re: Coding style for small if statements chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2020-02-07 05:36 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-07 23:36 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-08 17:20 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 02:07 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-09 13:01 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-09 13:26 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 15:53 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-09 17:03 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 15:35 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2020-02-09 18:07 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 21:17 +0000
                Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-11 07:19 +0000
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-02-10 23:40 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-12 12:24 +0000
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-11 11:30 +0000
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-02-11 09:41 -0700
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-12 08:12 -0500
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-14 21:18 +0000
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 00:01 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-22 05:22 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-02 07:57 -0700
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-04-02 08:28 -0700
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) jadill33@gmail.com - 2020-02-12 07:56 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2020-02-12 08:57 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-14 21:31 +0000
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) jadill33@gmail.com - 2020-02-14 14:10 -0800
                Re: Pre- and post- conditions (was Re: Coding style for small if statements) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-15 03:06 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-09 19:45 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 21:50 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-09 22:51 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-10 01:39 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-10 09:55 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-10 11:07 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-10 12:48 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-10 13:13 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-10 15:15 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-10 15:46 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-09 18:18 -0800
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-10 09:12 +0100
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-10 14:51 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-10 16:19 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-09 21:00 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 21:29 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2020-02-09 17:14 -0800
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-09 21:15 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2020-02-09 18:43 -0500
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2020-02-10 01:25 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 01:19 -0800
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 05:43 -0800
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-16 14:01 +0000
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-22 08:34 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2020-02-07 15:25 +0100
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-02-07 07:22 -0800
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> - 2020-02-14 15:21 +0300
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2020-02-14 13:35 +0000
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2020-02-14 14:43 +0100
          Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-15 12:08 +0100
          Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-20 10:10 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-20 19:58 +0100
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 05:55 -0800
    Re: Coding style for small if statements scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-02-07 15:26 +0000
      Re: Coding style for small if statements luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2020-02-07 17:47 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements jadill33@gmail.com - 2020-02-10 07:09 -0800
      Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-16 06:30 -0800
        Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-16 16:14 +0100
          Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-16 16:40 +0000
            Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-16 17:48 +0100
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2020-02-16 17:14 -0600
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-03-30 00:27 -0700
        Re: Coding style for small if statements Ike Naar <ike@sdf.lonestar.org> - 2020-02-16 18:39 +0000
          Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-16 20:37 +0000
            Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-02-17 09:09 +0100
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2020-02-17 05:32 -0800
              Re: Coding style for small if statements scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-02-17 18:07 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-02-17 23:48 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2020-02-17 20:40 -0500
          Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-23 10:14 -0800
            Re: Coding style for small if statements Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2020-02-23 20:16 +0000
              Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-03-29 18:56 -0700
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Ike Naar <ike@sdf.lonestar.org> - 2020-03-30 06:07 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-03-30 06:45 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2020-03-30 10:50 +0200
                Re: Coding style for small if statements gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2020-03-30 13:04 +0000
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2020-03-30 06:17 -0700
                Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-04-04 14:09 -0700
    Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-18 02:09 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelberger@nowhere.net> - 2020-02-10 01:47 +0000
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2020-02-12 17:54 +0100
  Re: Coding style for small if statements Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2020-02-20 07:18 -0800
  Re: Coding style for small if statements fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2020-02-29 03:30 -0800

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