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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #38805
| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: rhel 7 and kforth |
| Date | 2015-05-03 17:22 -0700 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <87fv7d2nv7.fsf@jester.gateway.sonic.net> (permalink) |
| References | (6 earlier) <630fc3d6-4917-426d-88f3-6e0179c1ad70@googlegroups.com> <878udqwq0s.fsf@jester.gateway.pace.com> <2015Apr18.164117@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <874mo5mkpn.fsf@jester.gateway.sonic.net> <2015May2.125317@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> |
anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>>The standard was written with those optimizations in mind
> You repeat that claim without supplying evidence.
Here are some posts from committee member Doug Gwyn, concerning a UB
when a variable is read and modified without an intervening sequence
point other than with autoincrement:
1. He explains that the UB is to enable special optimizations on vector
machines:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.std.c/DP_WFjf1Ug0/7fSMidjs044J
...if a swath of a vector is being operated on it might be that
nominally the "same" element has different values at different
places in the pipeline. It is in order to avoid forcing the
generated code to have to pessimistically flush pipelines etc. (nor
to have to add a preliminary test of whether j == a[j]) that the
default policy is to not require such pessimism by the
implementation.
2. He says it's fine for a given code fragment to be UB as long as the
standard gives the programmer a way to get the desired sequencing:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.std.c/DP_WFjf1Ug0/L9blvboMpL0J
Even if it is "obvious" by Tom St Denis thought he meant by that
source, in a real implementation one can have register caching,
vector instructions, etc. which all could make the fast code that
almost every user would expect to be generated produce an effect
different from what Tom thought it should be. The license for
implementations to be *efficient* is important in the success of C
as a systems programming language, and in order to prevent excessive
liberties being taken by code optimizers the standard provides ways
for programmers to *portably* and *reliably* express what they
intend; the most notable tool in this regard being the sequence
point guarantees.
3. Here he's explicit, C's philosophy is to generate fast code for
careful users:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.std.c/DP_WFjf1Ug0/xgVrnRbpV84J
Rather than penalize *everybody* by default, we support the best
code generation for the careful user by default, and when a more
strict order of evaluation is necessary for the correctness of some
algorithms there are ways for those programmers to obtain it.
He was always writing stuff like that, and I got into long discussions
with him that are now hard to find because of the crappy new interface
of Google Groups. His basic attitude was that C programmers were
supposed to use NASA-like processes to ensure freedom from UB and other
errors. He blamed the whole phenomenon of buffer overruns on failure to
use those processes.
> As mentioned, P.J.Plaugers articles explaining what happened in the
> C89 committee contained nothing of the kind.
Are these articles online? Did they discuss the issue of UB at all?
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rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-15 11:20 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-15 19:09 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 04:13 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 04:55 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-16 12:08 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 05:29 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 07:07 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-04-16 07:44 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 08:14 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-16 14:02 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 08:12 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 12:25 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 17:02 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 17:06 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2015-04-16 17:24 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 17:39 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-16 17:47 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 18:44 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 18:50 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-16 19:10 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 19:29 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 20:10 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-16 20:27 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-17 02:04 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-17 11:41 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-17 14:45 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-18 14:01 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-17 07:47 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-17 08:35 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-17 10:33 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-17 11:15 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-17 11:47 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-17 14:51 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-18 14:41 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-24 11:42 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-04-24 09:02 -1000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-02 10:53 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-05-03 17:22 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-04 10:23 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-04-22 00:10 +0200
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-21 17:45 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-22 13:08 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-04-17 20:27 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-17 14:41 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-18 14:11 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-17 15:47 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-18 14:34 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-18 14:09 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-19 20:31 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-20 11:35 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-21 18:07 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-22 11:21 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-24 19:34 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-25 08:36 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-04-25 11:36 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-25 16:29 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-04-19 10:08 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-19 20:11 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-20 12:05 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-04-22 01:27 +0200
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-21 18:18 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-22 11:00 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-24 11:28 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-04-25 01:34 +0200
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-24 21:07 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-25 16:41 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-25 10:06 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-26 14:56 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-26 20:22 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-27 09:02 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth mhx@iae.nl - 2015-04-27 03:59 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-04-27 15:45 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-04-27 18:09 -0400
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-04-28 03:55 +0200
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-27 19:30 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-27 19:44 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-04-28 02:03 -0400
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-28 01:44 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-04-28 02:44 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-28 16:47 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-28 17:00 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-28 17:14 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-28 17:59 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-28 21:41 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-04-29 03:07 +0200
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-28 18:13 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-04-29 00:07 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-04-28 22:22 +0200
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-28 14:23 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-04-28 23:51 +0200
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-28 16:50 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-05-10 12:24 -0400
Re: rhel 7 and kforth mhx@iae.nl - 2015-04-26 22:16 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-27 09:19 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth mhx@iae.nl - 2015-04-27 04:03 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-04-27 18:21 -0400
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-01 14:46 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-04-23 16:46 +0200
Re: rhel 7 and kforth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-04-17 10:35 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-17 08:43 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-17 08:41 -0700
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