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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #38471
| From | Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.forth |
| Subject | Re: rhel 7 and kforth |
| Date | 2015-04-21 18:07 -0700 |
| Organization | A noiseless patient Spider |
| Message-ID | <87wq15x95g.fsf@jester.gateway.sonic.net> (permalink) |
| References | (4 earlier) <55316ca5$0$21262$e4fe514c@dreader37.news.xs4all.nl> <2015Apr18.163428@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <79dde50f-2609-4c20-a68b-b1092f376811@googlegroups.com> <87d22zjx1j.fsf@jester.gateway.sonic.net> <2015Apr20.133514@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> |
anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes: > So if you use typical industry coding and review/QA processes, the > result is "sloppy code"? Sloppiness is relative of course, but yeah, an awful lot of industry code I've had contact with could truthfully be called sloppy. > My impression is that program size contributes [to UB] only inasfar as > that there are more places where "undefined behaviour" can occur, but > does not make the problem worse in other ways. It's like the issue with malloc/free that you describe in your GC paper. Once the program is big enough, lots of the code behavior is going to depend on long chains of inferences from multiple faraway parts of the program that get too complicated for humans to keep track of. Anyone working on the program will have to concentrate on localized regions without complete understanding of what the rest of the program is doing. There are reasonable techniques for maintaining modularity in this situation but you know what happens when there are memory constraints, schedule pressure in the project, etc. Another thing that happens with C programs (especially with embedded code) is it gets written by electrical engineers who are very smart people but who don't know anything about software, and made spaghetti up to the limit of their ability to make it work. So you get something that took huge brainpower even from the original author who understood everything, and is incomprehensible by the time a few dozen other people have messed with it, adding and changing stuff without understanding it so well. With a small program the author/maintainer can really understand and double-check everything, you can have a code review where multiple programmers examine it in detail and really check everything, etc. So you have much better chances that way. > Anyway, you are right that it is difficult or impossible to write > (large) C programs that do not contain "undefined behaviour". Which > leads to the question what the motives of those people are who claim > that its fine if compilers miscompile programs with "undefined > behaviour" Consider that one of the commonest forms of UB is out-of-bounds array references / buffer overruns. Would you say those are "miscompiled"? Why do you keep saying "miscompiled" if the compiler does what the specification says? Regehr has similar concerns but at least he's willing to propose a new specification saying what he wants the compiler to do instead. You seem to just want the compiler writers to run your program through a clairvoyance module to guess your intentions in it. Me, I think C is hopeless, it inherently has UB, and there's just a question of having larger or smaller amounts of it. But even the most defensible kinds like array overruns cause immense amounts of real-world bugs. It makes more sense to define a language that's completely free of UB if implemented strictly according to the spec (e.g. that means all subscripts have to be checked). Then implementations can introduce pragmas that turn off some of the checks, and the programmer can use these in critical loops when maximum speed is needed, at the expense of potentially creating UB, but only in (hopefully) very controlled situations.
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rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-15 11:20 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-15 19:09 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 04:13 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 04:55 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-16 12:08 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 05:29 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 07:07 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth franck.bensusan@gmail.com - 2015-04-16 07:44 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 08:14 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-16 14:02 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 08:12 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 12:25 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 17:02 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 17:06 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth foxaudioresearch@gmail.com - 2015-04-16 17:24 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 17:39 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-16 17:47 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 18:44 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 18:50 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-16 19:10 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 19:29 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-16 20:10 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-16 20:27 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-17 02:04 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-17 11:41 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-17 14:45 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-18 14:01 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-17 07:47 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-17 08:35 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-17 10:33 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-17 11:15 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-17 11:47 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-17 14:51 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-18 14:41 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-24 11:42 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2015-04-24 09:02 -1000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-02 10:53 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-05-03 17:22 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-04 10:23 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-04-22 00:10 +0200
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-21 17:45 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-22 13:08 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-04-17 20:27 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-17 14:41 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-18 14:11 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-17 15:47 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-18 14:34 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-18 14:09 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-19 20:31 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-20 11:35 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-21 18:07 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-22 11:21 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-24 19:34 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-25 08:36 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-04-25 11:36 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-25 16:29 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-04-19 10:08 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-19 20:11 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-20 12:05 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-04-22 01:27 +0200
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-21 18:18 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-22 11:00 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-24 11:28 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-04-25 01:34 +0200
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-24 21:07 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-25 16:41 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-25 10:06 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-26 14:56 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-26 20:22 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-27 09:02 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth mhx@iae.nl - 2015-04-27 03:59 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-04-27 15:45 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-04-27 18:09 -0400
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-04-28 03:55 +0200
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-27 19:30 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-27 19:44 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-04-28 02:03 -0400
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-28 01:44 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2015-04-28 02:44 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-28 16:47 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-28 17:00 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-28 17:14 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-28 17:59 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-28 21:41 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-04-29 03:07 +0200
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-28 18:13 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-04-29 00:07 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-04-28 22:22 +0200
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-28 14:23 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-04-28 23:51 +0200
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-28 16:50 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-05-10 12:24 -0400
Re: rhel 7 and kforth mhx@iae.nl - 2015-04-26 22:16 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-04-27 09:19 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth mhx@iae.nl - 2015-04-27 04:03 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth "Rod Pemberton" <bork@lllljunkqwer.cpm> - 2015-04-27 18:21 -0400
Re: rhel 7 and kforth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2015-05-01 14:46 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2015-04-23 16:46 +0200
Re: rhel 7 and kforth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-04-17 10:35 +0000
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-17 08:43 -0700
Re: rhel 7 and kforth krishna.myneni@ccreweb.org - 2015-04-17 08:41 -0700
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