Re: Advantages of C

From	Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Advantages of C
Date	2016-07-18 16:48 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<87eg6rhrq6.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References	<nmir1h$t2$1@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> writes:

> This continues the discussion I proposed in my previous message "High
> level C".
>
> The essential part of that message was this:
>
> C doesn't impose a particular view of your data. That doesn't at all
> imply that you can't use data structures  like flexible arrays, lists,
> hash tables, whatever. But there is no further assumptions or concepts
> behind those C constructs. Actually, as language mechanisms go, all
> those containers are written in C89.

I said I'd reply to your next C-related message I'll have a go...

I want to make a meta-point: in general I'm wary of unbalanced
criticism.  I think you should also point out some of the reason why
this is a disadvantage that C has.  It helps make your point.  First, it
helps you not to come over as a fanatic and, second, it show that your
opinions are based in a deep understanding of the merits and demerits of
various programming languages.

> And that is the advantage: you do not have to fit your data into some
> complicated language construct: the complex data structures are just
> that: complex data structures, with no further categorization into
> "maps" or other stuff. A list of files is just that: a list of files.

Sure, but you can also often write such programs more simply in
languages with the very attributes you are denigrating.  You posted a
few examples and I showed, just for comparison, what they would be like
in C++.  The discussion should then have been about the merits and
demerits or each.  For example, C++ is harder to learn, but your code
used a library that would also have to be learnt.  The C++ library is
standard so the learning is likely to be of long-term use.  Your library
is unlikely to be become standard, but is written in standard C so it
can (probably) be compiled for lots of targets.  Try to give a flavour
of the pros and cons where you can.

> The advantage here ist the simplicity and economy of effort that C
> allows.

Now list at last one disadvantage?

> Apparently (besides the religious people) in this group there are many
> lisp heads. They say that lisp notation is better than the notation we
> learned at school.

I don't recall anyone saying that.  It has advantages.  That does not
mean it is "better".  For one thing "better" is too vague make sense in
a technical discussion.  What happens, though, is someone will say
something daft like "lambdas are a fad" and people like me feel obliged
to put the other side.  If the original post put both sides -- what's
good and bad about a feature -- there would be no need for the
discussion to become polarised.

> Actually most of the messages were about lisp in
> the replies I got. It was maybe my fault because I spoke about lambda
> calculus in a reply. And then, it went downwards.
>
> It could be, it could be that for the needs of the machine, some other
> kind of notation is more adequate. But I would say that in that sense
> C has the advantage of being more readable by non lisp heads.
>
> You can write lisp in C too of course, you can write anything in C:
>
> a+(b+4)/5
>
> add(a,divide(add(b,4),5)));
>
> with a suitable definition of the functions "add", "div", etc. C gives
> you the choice and lisp heads should be happy with it, since it
> accepts almost unmodified, their notation.

You should probably pick up a book about Lisp before you start saying
that the above has anything but the most superficial similarity to a
Lisp form.  In general, these discussion should, in my option, be much
less obsessed with syntax.  C limits the ways in which program can be
written because of its semantics.  This makes it easy to learn but
limiting in how you structure your code.  Those sorts of distinction are
for more significant than (+ 1 2) vs 1 + 1 and add(1, 2).

> !!!!!!!!!!!

Ah, I though you were being serious.  Sorry.

-- 
Ben.

Thread

Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 17:02 +0200
  Re: Advantages of C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 16:16 +0100
    Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 19:13 +0200
    Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 23:56 +0530
  Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 08:17 -0700
    Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 17:38 +0200
  Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 16:48 +0100
    Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 17:58 +0200
      Re: Advantages of C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 17:27 +0100
        Re: Advantages of C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-07-18 15:19 -0400
        Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 21:49 +0100
          Re: Advantages of C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-18 22:06 +0100
            Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 01:11 +0100
              Re: Advantages of C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-19 01:31 +0100
                Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 02:29 +0100
                Re: Advantages of C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-07-18 21:58 -0400
          Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 16:30 -0700
            Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 02:06 +0100
              Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 19:39 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 15:29 +0100
                Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-19 07:39 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 17:19 +0100
        Re: Advantages of C luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 21:16 -0700
      Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 22:47 +0100
        Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 16:48 -0700
      Re: Advantages of C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-19 10:21 +1200
        Re: Advantages of C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-07-23 19:43 +0000
    Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 18:05 +0200
      Re: Advantages of C Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-07-18 21:45 +0200
        Re: Advantages of C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 21:16 +0100
          Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 11:00 +0530
            Re: Advantages of C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-19 11:00 +0100
              Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 10:08 +0530
        Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 23:32 +0200
          Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 16:54 -0700
            Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 01:54 +0100
              Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 20:02 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 11:26 +0530
                Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-19 01:43 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 10:33 +0530
                Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-20 01:07 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-21 12:53 +0530
                Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 15:33 +0100
                Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-19 08:04 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 17:35 +0100
              Re: Advantages of C Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 19:21 +0100
          Re: Advantages of C Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-07-20 12:05 +0200
        Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 16:51 -0700
          Re: Advantages of C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-07-23 09:24 +0000
            Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-23 02:33 -0700
      Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 22:36 +0100
        Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-19 00:00 +0200
          Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 01:46 +0100
          Re: Advantages of C Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 19:49 +0100
            Re: Advantages of C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-20 12:02 -0700
              Re: Advantages of C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-07-20 12:32 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-20 13:18 -0700
              Re: Advantages of C Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-07-20 20:37 +0100
            Re: Advantages of C jadill33@gmail.com - 2016-07-20 13:06 -0700
            Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-20 23:07 +0200
              Re: Advantages of C jadill33@gmail.com - 2016-07-21 09:48 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-22 10:14 +0200
                Re: Advantages of C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-22 20:25 +1200
                Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-22 02:17 -0700
                Re: Advantages of C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-22 23:56 +1200
                Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-22 11:28 +0200
                Re: Advantages of C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-22 23:49 +1200
                Re: Advantages of C jadill33@gmail.com - 2016-07-22 06:46 -0700
        Re: Advantages of C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 23:13 +0100
          Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 01:45 +0100
    Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-18 19:18 +0200
      Re: Advantages of C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-18 22:47 +0100
        Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-19 00:07 +0200
          Re: Advantages of C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-07-19 00:18 +0200
            Re: Advantages of C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-19 01:36 +0200
          Re: Advantages of C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-07-19 10:28 +1200
            Re: Advantages of C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-07-18 20:34 -0400
          Re: Advantages of C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-07-18 20:33 -0400
            Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 19:30 -0700
        Re: Advantages of C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 17:01 -0700
  Re: Advantages of C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 23:51 +0530
    Re: Advantages of C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-07-20 09:01 -0700

csiph-web