Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.forth > #15890

Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth

From Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth
References (7 earlier) <22489610.pnmz7RBueg@sunwukong.fritz.box> <7x391wsjjp.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <8997734.FPiUxMsVlB@sunwukong.fritz.box> <7xbogk71fc.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <1599725.MmvXeDaymt@sunwukong.fritz.box>
Date 2012-10-03 12:05 -0700
Message-ID <7xmx03bclp.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> (permalink)
Organization Nightsong/Fort GNOX

Show all headers | View raw

Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
> Then read it up.  If you google for "3d turtle graphics", my papers on 
> the subject show up as item 2 and 3 (German/English) on Google.

I get somewhat different search results but it did find your dragon
graphics article, which is nice.  Thanks.

> I said the essence of Forth is to create domain specific languages...
> You don't program the game in "low level Forth", you program it in a
> domain specific language written in Forth that makes the task easy to do.

Well, I have to reserve judgment about how feasible this is until I
actually something like it.  The dragon graphics article seemed to show
the low level Forth that I'm used to.  In order to compare to Javascript
(or Python, Scheme, etc). the DSL would need:

- Some kind of OOP system (ok, this one has been done in Forth many times)
- Good runtime type checking (static checking not needed).  For example,
  passing the wrong number of args to a function should signal an error.
  I think that doesn't fit so well into Forth's exposed-stack style.
- Garbage collection (Anton did this but I don't know if it's widely used)
- Convenient syntax for writing nested data structures

Lisp and JS do all of the above pretty well.  It seems to me that if you
do it as a Forth DSL, it's not so Forth-like any more. 

> This is all not the case with children.  They haven't learned another 
> language before, and they are accepting everything, no matter how weird 
> you think it is.

I've heard similar things about Haskell, that it has a "steep unlearning
curve".

> *Of course* you have to reimplement something like Unity3D or a 
> framework with similar intent if you want to make 3D games in Forth.  It 
> has been done, it can be done.

Well, I'd want to see an example so I can compare its sophistication to
something like Unity3D.  

>> Other languages burn more machine resources to conserve programmer
>> effort.  Most programmers consider this a usually-good trade.  
> We had some sort of this discussion with type systems.  We here don't 
> think that a statically checked type system is a good trade-off.

Type systems are a rather different trade-off and I can understand
preferring dynamic types.  I still use Python all the time myself.
Forth though has no machine-checked types at all, so you have to be very
careful to avoid type errors, or else spend a lot of time tediously
debugging.

>> Take a look at some rubyquiz.com problems sometime
> I've seen such puzzles, they usually are done in a way to specify the 
> problems so that the built-in features of the language (like regexps) 

Some of the rubyquiz problems are Ruby-specific but as you saw, others
are not particularly language-specific.  A lot of them require some
reasonable features for handling strings, but that's what a lot of
non-embedded programming is like these days, so it can't be considered a
special feature.  There are many things to dislike about C++ but it does
make handling strings easier than in C.

> http://rubyquiz.com/quiz69.html
> There, one author uses PostScript to draw the solution..
> This is a remarkable similar approach I would use to solve this problem 
> in Forth

Yes that particular solution would be pretty workable in Forth.

>> What do you mean by "the JIT is written in Forth"?
> Is this difficult to understand?  The code that transforms tokenized 
> JavaScript into machine code is written in Forth.

Well, other meanings are possible, and my impression had been that Forth
was basically the intermediate language that got compiled, rather than
the implementation language of the compiler.  I will have to take a
closer look.  Of course it's possible to write a JIT compiler in C++ or
even in C.  LuaJIT is exactly that.

> It's the comfort of "being at home".  Many people *only* know one single 
> programming language, and don't feel at home with any other, 

Oh, I'd say if they were implementing Javascript in C++ then they must
know both of those languages pretty well.  I'm really a bit puzzled
about why they would have written the JIT translator in Forth and
will have to check it out, it sounds interesting.

> You rarely see Forth in academia.  You will get your C/C++/Java class 
> there (depending on your age, now it's Java), 

Java was a 1990's thing and I hope it's gone from academic curricula.
MIT switched from Scheme to Python, which is a good choice for
introductory programming.  CMU uses ML, but it's aimed at CS students
who already have some programming knowledge.  

> Rust visually resembles C and Ruby, two very popular languages...
> Rust has one huge advantage over C++,...: It has a garbage collector.

It's not just the curly braces and GC since Java has both of those.
Rust is really a more advanced language than Java or C++.

> Writing good Forth programs is not about "swap dup + over !"... So you
> better use Forth for something like net2o, where you can redefine how
> the syntax of the page looks like,

I've looked at net2o a little and it's interesting, but again it looks
like the low level Forth that I'm used to.

> I think HTML is broken by design, as witnessed by the many "simple"
> markup languages people have

You could google "naggum xml" but make sure there are no kids present ;-).

> Something roughly equivalent to JavaScript in terms of what you can 
> achieve with it (probably much more) would be a natural outcome of that 
> development.  Probably with a "nice C-like syntax" to not alienate 
> people who only feel at home when they smell curly brackets and 
> semicolons.

Why not use Javascript directly in this case?  I don't see what Forth
contributes to the picture.

Back to comp.lang.forth | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-09-15 22:28 +0100
  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-18 02:08 -0700
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-18 11:58 +0000
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-18 05:55 -0700
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-19 12:50 +0000
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-06 01:40 -0700
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-10-06 11:18 +0200
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-09-18 11:13 -0400
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-19 15:56 -0700
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-09-29 00:56 -0700
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-09-30 12:31 -0400
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-30 11:53 -0700
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-09-30 17:38 -0400
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-02 04:16 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 10:52 -0700
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-02 20:20 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-10-02 15:58 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 13:31 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 02:59 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 19:08 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 15:50 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-03 14:04 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 10:29 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-04 16:07 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 20:27 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-04 16:11 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-04 20:12 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-05 13:08 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-05 17:48 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2012-10-03 07:39 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 20:24 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-03 18:13 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 12:05 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 22:20 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 12:41 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-04 22:40 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 18:11 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 15:26 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 18:54 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-10-05 08:19 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 22:18 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-10-05 08:20 +0100
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-05 11:08 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-07 08:32 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-07 21:39 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-07 21:03 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-08 19:09 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-08 21:57 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:10 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 14:12 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-10 09:29 +0100
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:13 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 02:02 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:23 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 18:24 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-11 17:21 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-11 12:33 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-11 13:42 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-11 18:59 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-11 13:49 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-12 03:27 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-12 19:18 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-12 18:53 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-12 22:55 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-13 22:07 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 00:56 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 18:41 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-13 16:05 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-14 02:57 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-14 00:26 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-14 19:28 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-15 04:21 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-14 03:17 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-10-14 15:43 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-14 21:18 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-15 04:21 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-15 10:03 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-15 04:04 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-15 21:34 +0100
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 17:51 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 01:09 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-16 02:15 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-16 02:30 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 15:18 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-14 21:05 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-14 18:19 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 17:58 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 15:21 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 18:51 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 17:20 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-12 22:41 +0100
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-12 22:24 +0100
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:20 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 08:56 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-09 11:14 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-09 22:47 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 18:31 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-09 22:55 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:04 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-09 17:30 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 11:31 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-03 16:53 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 16:50 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-03 18:06 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-03 16:53 -0500
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-03 00:38 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 02:06 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-03 03:38 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 13:40 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-04 01:00 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-03 22:32 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-04 04:49 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-04 01:35 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-06 06:17 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth arc <arc.deletethis@vorsicht-bissig.de> - 2012-10-07 23:45 +1300
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-10 09:34 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 12:16 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-10 20:04 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 11:41 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-05 12:29 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-06 19:26 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-05 19:09 +0000
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-02 22:03 +0100
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2012-10-06 08:30 -0700
  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com - 2012-09-29 07:09 -0700
  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-09 14:30 -0700
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 18:27 -0400
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-10 09:46 +0100
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-10 03:52 -0700
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 06:01 -0700
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-10 07:42 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-10 09:10 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 10:34 -0700
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-11 17:17 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 01:03 -0400
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:59 -0400
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 20:57 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-11 02:05 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Matthias Koch <koch@pci.uni-hannover.de> - 2012-10-15 11:20 +0200
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-15 11:53 +0000
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 08:52 -0700
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-15 11:53 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 18:00 -0400

csiph-web