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Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth

From rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth
Date 2012-10-10 21:23 -0400
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <k5572j$dgl$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <1755828.uKo66frh80@sunwukong.fritz.box> <7xa9vw9r99.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <e81bb84a-d1ae-4793-b1ee-5bac36939907@p22g2000vby.googlegroups.com> <k51pel$ah9$1@dont-email.me> <f5162f01-efbd-43e9-a008-e714ba4b2c36@w2g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>

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On 10/10/2012 5:02 AM, Mark Wills wrote:
> On Oct 9, 7:12 pm, rickman<gnu...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> On 10/9/2012 4:10 AM, Mark Wills wrote:
>>
>>> On Oct 9, 5:57 am, Paul Rubin<no.em...@nospam.invalid>    wrote:
>>
>>>> Yeah, leaving bounds checks active all the time is probably best
>>>> practice in most applications.
>>
>>> No. Testing the absolute living shit out of the application to prove
>>> that a bounds error cannot happen is the way. Detecting a bounds error
>>> is very nice in a spreadsheet, or an app to convert GIFs to JPGs or
>>> whatever. It's not really much use on the rocket firing system on the
>>> alignment correction system of a telecommunications satellite. Out of
>>> bounds? Whoop de doo... You're still going to fall out of orbit!
>>
>> Really, you think the way to design critical systems is to test them
>> extensively?  Unless you do an "exhaustive" test which means *proving*
>> it is truly exhaustive, testing can't prove the absence of errors.  NASA
>> demonstrates this on a regular basis with some expensive and spectacular
>> failures, not to mention the tragic ones.  Do you really think their
>> failures are because they didn't test the "absolute living shit" out of
>> them?
>>
>> Rick
>
>> Unless you do an "exhaustive" test which means *proving*
>> it is truly exhaustive, testing can't prove the absence of errors.
>
> Well, I think you can prove it, but sure, it would be very difficult
> to come up with the every possible set of variables, be they hardware
> variables, software variables, environmental etc. So, all you can do
> is test test test test as extensively as possible, such that it
> becomes possible to compute the Probability of Failure on Demand (PFD)
> which is at the heart of designing, building, and testing SIL rated
> (mission critical) systems.

Proving a system is correct means proving it in a mathematical sense, 
rigorous proof.  Hard to do with any but fairly simple programs. 
Supposedly the reason why "structured programming" is used, or so I was 
told in school.  As you say the other way it to test all possible 
combinations of inputs, an impossible job in any practical sense for 
most systems.


> Of course, it still happens - things go bad, though looking through
> past data (in my industry, the oil and gas industry) there are/were
> human factors that contributed to the disaster, rather than simply
> machinery going wrong. It seems even in the avaiation industry the
> triplex redundant systems are awesomely good at their job, and there
> are often human factors involved when we hear of planes crashing (fuel
> icing, pilot disorientation etc).

I'm not sure what this means.  There are still problems with systems 
that cause accidents or in other cases the problems are caught by the 
personnel and the accident avoided, largely because the systems were 
tested for the problems that were expected.  It is the unexpected that 
is the real problem.

Rick

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Thread

Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-09-15 22:28 +0100
  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-18 02:08 -0700
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-18 11:58 +0000
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-18 05:55 -0700
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-19 12:50 +0000
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-06 01:40 -0700
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-10-06 11:18 +0200
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-09-18 11:13 -0400
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-19 15:56 -0700
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-09-29 00:56 -0700
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-09-30 12:31 -0400
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-30 11:53 -0700
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-09-30 17:38 -0400
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-02 04:16 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 10:52 -0700
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-02 20:20 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-10-02 15:58 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 13:31 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 02:59 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 19:08 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 15:50 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-03 14:04 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 10:29 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-04 16:07 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 20:27 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-04 16:11 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-04 20:12 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-05 13:08 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-05 17:48 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2012-10-03 07:39 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 20:24 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-03 18:13 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 12:05 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 22:20 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 12:41 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-04 22:40 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 18:11 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 15:26 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 18:54 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-10-05 08:19 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 22:18 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-10-05 08:20 +0100
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-05 11:08 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-07 08:32 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-07 21:39 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-07 21:03 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-08 19:09 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-08 21:57 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:10 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 14:12 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-10 09:29 +0100
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:13 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 02:02 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:23 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 18:24 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-11 17:21 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-11 12:33 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-11 13:42 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-11 18:59 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-11 13:49 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-12 03:27 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-12 19:18 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-12 18:53 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-12 22:55 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-13 22:07 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 00:56 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 18:41 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-13 16:05 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-14 02:57 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-14 00:26 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-14 19:28 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-15 04:21 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-14 03:17 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-10-14 15:43 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-14 21:18 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-15 04:21 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-15 10:03 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-15 04:04 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-15 21:34 +0100
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 17:51 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 01:09 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-16 02:15 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-16 02:30 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 15:18 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-14 21:05 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-14 18:19 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 17:58 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 15:21 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 18:51 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 17:20 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-12 22:41 +0100
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-12 22:24 +0100
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:20 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 08:56 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-09 11:14 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-09 22:47 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 18:31 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-09 22:55 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:04 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-09 17:30 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 11:31 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-03 16:53 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 16:50 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-03 18:06 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-03 16:53 -0500
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-03 00:38 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 02:06 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-03 03:38 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 13:40 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-04 01:00 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-03 22:32 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-04 04:49 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-04 01:35 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-06 06:17 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth arc <arc.deletethis@vorsicht-bissig.de> - 2012-10-07 23:45 +1300
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-10 09:34 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 12:16 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-10 20:04 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 11:41 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-05 12:29 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-06 19:26 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-05 19:09 +0000
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-02 22:03 +0100
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2012-10-06 08:30 -0700
  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com - 2012-09-29 07:09 -0700
  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-09 14:30 -0700
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 18:27 -0400
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-10 09:46 +0100
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-10 03:52 -0700
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 06:01 -0700
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-10 07:42 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-10 09:10 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 10:34 -0700
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-11 17:17 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 01:03 -0400
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:59 -0400
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 20:57 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-11 02:05 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Matthias Koch <koch@pci.uni-hannover.de> - 2012-10-15 11:20 +0200
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-15 11:53 +0000
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 08:52 -0700
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-15 11:53 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 18:00 -0400

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