Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth

From	Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth
References	(11 earlier) <1599725.MmvXeDaymt@sunwukong.fritz.box> <7xmx03bclp.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <1797229.DCWuoRaQ3N@sunwukong.fritz.box> <7x4nmauisn.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <2028826.7QaYsnLk6j@sunwukong.fritz.box>
Date	2012-10-04 18:11 -0700
Message-ID	<7xd30x4t9c.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> (permalink)
Organization	Nightsong/Fort GNOX

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Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> writes:
> 4 red arms
> green cylinder body
> 4 black wheels
>
> Is this a data structure or a program?  I don't know, I don't care.  To 
> draw the robot, you have to interpret the data structure or to execute 
> the program.

I'd rather that it be data since then I can write code to interpret the
data in multiple ways, and it helps to be able to write data before
starting to write code.  E.g. in Python:

programmers = [
  {'name':'Bernd' 'languages':['Forth','C']},
  {'name':'Elizabeth','languages':['Forth','Fortran']},
  {'name':'Paul','languages':['Python','Forth']}
]

I can type that directly into Python and have it create a nested data
structure, without having to write and debug any specialized code.  If I
then want to be able to find the users of a given language, I can then
say (e.g.):

def lang_users(lang):
   return [p['name'] for p in programmers if lang in p['languages']]

Then to find the Forth users:

  >>> print lang_users('Forth')
  ['Bernd', 'Elizabeth', 'Paul']

This is much harder in languages without such syntax, such as Java.  It
has to be done instead with code usually described as "boilerplate" in
an uncomplimentary way.

> If I make a toolkit, and make sure you can't access *my* tools, I have
> to anticipate what you will need, and implement all of that.  If I
> give you my toolkit-building tools, you can implement your stuff,

If I'm supposed to implement such stuff myself, why do I want your
toolkit in the first place?  Obviously as a FOSS user I want to be able
to extend the toolkit as a last resort, and obviously in the first
releases of a toolkit, the important use cases haven't necessarily been
identified.  But after a few iterations I'd expect the toolkit to do
pretty much everything needed, and modularity makes me not want to
maintain my own fork if I can help it.

> I try to make these modifications one little piece at a time, and then 
> test it, as well. 

OK, so you make a small modification and create a bug, which makes your
test fail.  What now?  You have to figure out the cause of the bug.
And, I think, this is much easier in a (runtime) type-checked and
bounds-checked language, than something like Forth.

> look at John Hayes ttester (in Gforth under test/ttester.fs; 
> require test/ttester.fs
> : bounds ( addr len -- last first )  over + swap ;
> t{ 3 5 bounds -> 8 3 }t

Oh this is nice, and I didn't know about it.  I'm going to start using it.

> You complained that Forth doesn't check stack effects.  Well, just add
> a check yourself

That's nice for checking at the function definition, but what about
making sure the callers always pass the right stuff?

> Addresses and xts *are* integers. 

No really, multiplying two integers is a sensible arithmetic operation;
multiplying two pointers is not.

> If you haven't found Forth strings, arrays, hash tables, etc., by now, 
> it's because you were looking at an embedded Forth, where all these 
> features just don't fit.

I'm using gforth and I didn't notice any of that in the manual.

> string.fs uses a transformation model rather than a creation model.  
> I.e. all you have are global string variables.  Most string 
> manipulations aren't complex, they usually are either adding things to 
> the end of a string, or search/replace passes through the string, which 
> transform the string.

Even this sounds like it needs GC.

> It would be far more natural that the JavaScript engines would use
> Lisp compilation techniques, 

I think historically, Lisp compilers didn't use tracing JIT's.  You'd
write the inner loops of your Lisp program to use known types if you
could, and the compiler would rely on programmer annotations or type
inference to generate optimized code for the types.  In cases where the
types were unknown, you'd get runtime dispatch and an efficiency hit.

Today, PyPy, LuaJIT, and the JS compilers all use tracing, so I guess
the trade-offs have changed.

> Though Lua does away with most of the curly braces and the semicolons, 
> and even has multiple return values.

My gripe with Lua mostly has to do with the looseness of the type
system, compared to Lisp or even Python.

Thread

Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-09-15 22:28 +0100
  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-18 02:08 -0700
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-18 11:58 +0000
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-09-18 05:55 -0700
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-19 12:50 +0000
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-06 01:40 -0700
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-10-06 11:18 +0200
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-09-18 11:13 -0400
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-09-19 15:56 -0700
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-09-29 00:56 -0700
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-09-30 12:31 -0400
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-30 11:53 -0700
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-09-30 17:38 -0400
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-02 04:16 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 10:52 -0700
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-02 20:20 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Spam@ControlQ.com - 2012-10-02 15:58 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 13:31 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 02:59 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-02 19:08 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 15:50 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-03 14:04 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 10:29 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-04 16:07 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 20:27 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-04 16:11 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-04 20:12 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-05 13:08 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-05 17:48 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Pablo Hugo Reda <pabloreda@gmail.com> - 2012-10-03 07:39 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 20:24 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-03 18:13 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 12:05 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-03 22:20 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 12:41 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-04 22:40 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 18:11 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 15:26 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 18:54 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-10-05 08:19 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 22:18 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-10-05 08:20 +0100
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-05 11:08 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-07 08:32 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-07 21:39 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-07 21:03 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-08 19:09 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-08 21:57 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:10 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 14:12 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-10 09:29 +0100
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:13 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 02:02 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:23 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 18:24 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-11 17:21 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-11 12:33 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-11 13:42 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-11 18:59 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-11 13:49 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-12 03:27 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-12 19:18 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-12 18:53 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-12 22:55 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-13 22:07 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 00:56 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 18:41 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-13 16:05 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-14 02:57 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-14 00:26 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-14 19:28 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-15 04:21 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-14 03:17 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Alex McDonald <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2012-10-14 15:43 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-14 21:18 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-15 04:21 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-10-15 10:03 +0000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-15 04:04 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-15 21:34 +0100
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 17:51 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 01:09 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-16 02:15 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-16 02:30 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 15:18 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-14 21:05 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-14 18:19 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 17:58 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 15:21 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 18:51 -0400
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 17:20 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-12 22:41 +0100
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-12 22:24 +0100
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:20 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 08:56 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-09 11:14 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-09 22:47 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-09 18:31 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-09 22:55 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 01:04 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-10-09 17:30 +0200
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-04 11:31 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-03 16:53 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 16:50 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Hugh Aguilar <hughaguilar96@yahoo.com> - 2012-10-03 18:06 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth kenney@cix.compulink.co.uk - 2012-10-03 16:53 -0500
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-03 00:38 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 02:06 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-03 03:38 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-03 13:40 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-04 01:00 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-10-03 22:32 -1000
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-04 04:49 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-04 01:35 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Howerd <howerdo@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-06 06:17 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth arc <arc.deletethis@vorsicht-bissig.de> - 2012-10-07 23:45 +1300
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-10 09:34 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Mark Wills <forthfreak@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 12:16 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-10-10 20:04 -0500
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-04 11:41 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-05 12:29 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-06 19:26 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-05 19:09 +0000
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-02 22:03 +0100
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2012-10-06 08:30 -0700
  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com - 2012-09-29 07:09 -0700
  Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-09 14:30 -0700
    Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-09 18:27 -0400
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-10-10 09:46 +0100
      Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-10 03:52 -0700
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 06:01 -0700
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-10 07:42 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth theoriginalsnial@gmail.com - 2012-10-10 09:10 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 10:34 -0700
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-11 17:17 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-13 01:03 -0400
        Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-10 21:59 -0400
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-10 20:57 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-11 02:05 -0700
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Matthias Koch <koch@pci.uni-hannover.de> - 2012-10-15 11:20 +0200
          Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2012-10-15 11:53 +0000
            Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-10-15 08:52 -0700
              Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-10-15 11:53 -0700
                Re: Olympic Spririt for Forth rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2012-10-15 18:00 -0400

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