Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)?

From	Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.forth
Subject	Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)?
Date	2014-03-18 10:10 -0700
Organization	Nightsong/Fort GNOX
Message-ID	<7xmwgnsa8t.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> (permalink)
References	(8 earlier) <05495091-14c4-4940-9573-70b188ef98c5@googlegroups.com> <lfv3h1$fa$1@dont-email.me> <lfv7l8$ujk$1@online.de> <7xeh20rxd5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <2014Mar18.141309@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>

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anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>>1) "Lambda lifting": the inner function is syntactically converted
> That's similar to what we are doing by keeping the stuff on the stack.
> We do it manually, though.

I'm not sure what you mean by that--do you mean in handwritten Forth?
I was writing about ways a Forth compiler could conceivably handle
nested functions with locals.

> If the programmer chooses to go there, ok, but then we don't need
> something that looks like local variables: A programmer can easily get
> that effect by using global variables.

Globals don't work in the case of recursive functions, and even without
recursion you have to either use a small set of names or alias them
somehow, to not burn extra storage cells since not all of them will be
live at the same time.  And then you have to be careful when refactoring
code, since you could have two functions using the same cell.  You
really want locals on a stack of some sort.

> So IMO for non-local access to local variables, if we choose to
> support that, the way to go is lexical scoping.  It even won out in
> Lisp, even though dynamic scoping was firmly entrenched there.

I have the impression it wasn't too terribly bad in Lisp.  It had a nice
feature that you could shadow system variables on purpose if you wanted.
E.g. to print a number in hexadecimal you could do the equivalent of

   : print-hex ( n -- ) 16 { *number-base* } . ;

That would shadow the number base used by "." then print the number and
(on scope exit) restore the old base.  RMS felt for a long time (I don't
know about now) that it was important that Emacs used dynamic scope
because it allowed controlling different subsystems that way.  I wrote a
moderate amount of Emacs Lisp code and never had much trouble from it.
Scheme uses lexical scope by default but kept dynamic scope (fluid-let)
as an option.

Thread

What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 23:56 -0800
  Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? mhx@iae.nl - 2013-12-18 01:14 -0800
    Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-18 01:34 -0800
    Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 02:33 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-12-18 14:36 +0100
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 06:24 -0800
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2013-12-19 02:54 +0100
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 22:12 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? mhx@iae.nl - 2013-12-18 05:43 -0800
  Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-12-18 11:21 +0000
    Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 04:31 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 04:49 -0800
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 05:12 -0800
  Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-12-18 08:26 -1000
    Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-18 11:03 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 11:21 -0800
    Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 11:19 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2013-12-18 10:08 -1000
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-12-18 21:58 +0100
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-12-19 14:15 +1100
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-19 13:32 +0000
              Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-12-20 21:07 +1100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-20 12:35 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-20 13:02 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-12-22 14:19 +1100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-22 10:15 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-12-24 12:30 +1100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-12-24 16:48 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-12-28 11:08 +1100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-12-28 11:40 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-26 18:03 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-26 10:34 -0800
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-27 15:53 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-28 17:26 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-28 17:53 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-28 18:21 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-29 14:49 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-29 20:45 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-30 17:08 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-30 20:00 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-12-28 18:04 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-28 18:47 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-28 19:12 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Ed" <invalid@invalid.com> - 2013-12-28 11:09 +1100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-28 13:45 +0000
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Elizabeth D Rather <erather@forth.com> - 2013-12-18 19:04 -1000
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-19 09:25 +0000
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-19 05:00 -0800
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 23:41 -0800
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 01:00 -0800
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 02:47 -0800
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-19 11:23 +0000
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 03:52 -0800
  Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-19 15:58 +0000
    Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-19 10:05 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-19 20:07 +0000
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-19 12:33 -0800
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-19 20:33 +0000
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2013-12-19 20:52 +0000
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-19 18:52 -0800
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-28 12:52 -0600
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-28 11:47 -0800
              Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-29 07:39 -0600
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-29 08:11 -0800
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-29 15:25 +0000
              Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-29 08:15 -0800
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-29 16:03 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-29 20:54 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? mhx@iae.nl - 2013-12-29 13:38 -0800
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-30 17:04 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2013-12-30 20:05 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-12-30 16:49 -0800
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-01-02 17:27 +0000
              Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-29 16:40 -0600
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-30 16:51 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-30 11:15 -0600
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-30 17:37 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2013-12-30 12:07 -0600
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-20 13:50 +0000
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2013-12-19 21:49 -0800
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2013-12-20 08:56 +0000
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-04-03 19:13 -0700
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2014-03-11 05:35 +0000
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-11 12:59 +0100
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-11 23:44 -0700
              Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Julian Fondren <ayrnieu@gmail.com> - 2014-03-12 11:48 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-12 20:21 +0100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-12 23:35 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-03-14 14:25 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-14 16:36 +0100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? mhx@iae.nl - 2014-03-14 11:27 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-16 17:38 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-03-17 03:35 -0400
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-03-17 20:36 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-03-18 13:13 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-18 14:28 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-03-18 10:10 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-03-25 12:54 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-25 23:09 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-03-26 13:49 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-03-26 22:07 +0100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-20 22:11 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? hughaguilar96@yahoo.com - 2014-03-28 22:18 -0700
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-03-29 10:57 +0000
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-03-13 16:42 +0000
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-11 12:51 +0000
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? "Alex McDonald" <blog@rivadpm.com> - 2014-03-11 14:54 +0000
    Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 21:36 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-20 16:56 +0000
    Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 23:24 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? mhx@iae.nl - 2013-12-20 02:05 -0800
      Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-20 12:41 +0000
        Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-20 17:46 +0000
          Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Alexander Skobelev <al.skobelev@gmail.com> - 2013-12-21 08:11 -0800
            Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-23 10:07 +0000
              Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2013-12-23 19:31 +0100
                Re: What about code blocks (not Forth blocks)? anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2013-12-26 17:45 +0000

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