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Re: Formal specifications etc.

From Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Formal specifications etc.
Date 2014-06-05 11:48 -0700
Organization Nightsong/Fort GNOX
Message-ID <7xmwdryyy5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> (permalink)
References (6 earlier) <7x4n05gtt7.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <lmfu8n$95f$1@online.de> <7xbnu7ewo7.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <lmpt18$7k2$1@online.de> <2014Jun5.173405@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>

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anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
> I have not read the paper, and I don't believe in the old idea that
> formal specifications combined with formal verification produce
> correct software (it produced software with requirements bugs and
> specification bugs, if it produces any software at all).

I think we have to admit by now that verification technology has gotten
a lot better than it was in the old days.  The vision of using it on
everything is not currently practical and may never be practical.

> But I do think that an additional (redundant) encoding of (some)
> requirements (in addition to the executable code or executable
> specification) can reduce bugs, especially if the additional encoding
> is quite different from the executable code.  

One of the gains is that you write the specification in one place and
then it's enforced on the entire program.  The familiar style of static
typechecking is an example of this: if the function signature says it
takes an integer arg, the compiler verifies that it never receives a
string, from any call site.  A specification like "N < 100" on an array
index is also easy to write, and being able to statically enforce it
means you can guarantee that the program won't overflow that array.
That is obviously very valuable if you can do it.  The difficulty is in
the verification (requiring analyzing the whole program to check all the
places N might have come from), not in writing the spec.

> I don't think that a formal full specification is cost-effective for
> that for most software,

Sure, certainly true.  There is a formally verified TLS, though it
doesn't have enough features to be really useful:

  http://www.mitls.org/wsgi/download

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MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 21:35 -0400
  Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 19:09 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 19:13 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 23:00 -0400
        Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 20:25 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 20:23 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 22:15 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 15:13 +0200
          Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 13:51 -0400
            Re: MSP430-Stamp HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 21:08 +0200
          Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 12:22 -0700
            Re: MSP430-Stamp HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 21:41 +0200
              Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 13:28 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 17:55 -0400
            Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 16:29 -0400
              Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 14:18 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 18:07 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 17:24 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-02 11:10 +0200
        Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-02 10:57 +0000
          Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-02 13:34 +0200
    Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 20:10 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-29 20:29 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 21:02 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp "Rod Pemberton" <dont_use_email@xnothavet.cqm> - 2014-05-30 04:05 -0400
    Re: MSP430-Stamp HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-05-30 15:13 +0200
  Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 19:57 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 23:32 -0400
      Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-29 21:07 -0700
  Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 02:39 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-07-17 12:40 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 16:08 -0400
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-07-18 00:06 +0200
        Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-07-18 08:22 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-07-18 23:42 +0200
            Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 18:28 -0400
              Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-07-19 01:41 +0200
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 19:48 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-07-18 16:59 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-07-19 14:30 +0200
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Gary Bergstrom <forthprgrmr@gmail.com> - 2014-07-19 08:23 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-07-21 10:42 +0200
  Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 03:03 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 07:47 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-31 11:36 -0400
        Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-31 09:34 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 10:09 -0700
            Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-31 10:52 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 01:28 -0400
            Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 22:41 -0700
              Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 02:00 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 23:07 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 03:13 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-01 07:15 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 12:33 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-01 09:45 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 13:10 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-06-01 18:38 +0200
                Re: MSP430-Stamp babruehl@gmail.com - 2014-06-01 11:40 -0700
            Re: MSP430-Stamp HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-06-01 11:13 +0200
              Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-01 09:50 +0000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp HaveANiceDay <HaveANiceDay@NoSpam.invalid> - 2014-06-01 12:47 +0200
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-01 04:05 -0700
              Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 12:39 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-01 10:00 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp babruehl@gmail.com - 2014-06-01 11:45 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 14:57 -0400
            Re: MSP430-Stamp "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 12:01 -0700
              Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 15:12 -0400
  Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 03:12 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 14:02 -0400
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-31 03:33 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 07:19 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-05-31 12:01 -0400
        Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 09:15 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 13:51 -0700
            Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-05-31 14:20 -0700
              Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 14:51 -0700
              Re: MSP430-Stamp "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-05-31 16:22 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-06-01 01:33 +0200
            Re: MSP430-Stamp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-31 17:31 -1000
              Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 21:48 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-05-31 19:12 -1000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 22:25 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-06-01 09:45 +0000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-01 04:16 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-01 08:51 -1000
            Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-31 21:03 -0700
              Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-06-01 21:17 +0200
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-04 22:46 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-05 13:27 +0000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-05 08:39 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-05 16:10 +0000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-05 11:10 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-05 19:52 +0000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-06-05 23:25 +0200
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-05 15:02 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-06 10:56 +0000
                Correct Software and Specifications (was Re: MSP430-Stamp) Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2014-06-09 09:59 +0100
                Re: MSP430-Stamp mhx@iae.nl - 2014-06-05 14:30 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-06 10:59 +0000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-06-05 15:57 +0200
                Formal specifications etc. (was: MSP430-Stamp) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-06-05 15:34 +0000
                Re: Formal specifications etc. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-05 11:48 -0700
                Re: Formal specifications etc. anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2014-06-05 19:46 +0000
                Re: Formal specifications etc. (was: MSP430-Stamp) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-06-05 23:02 +0200
                Re: Formal specifications etc. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-05 14:15 -0700
                Re: Formal specifications etc. rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 17:33 -0400
                Re: Formal specifications etc. Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-05 15:32 -0700
                Re: Formal specifications etc. Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2014-06-06 04:00 -0500
                Re: Formal specifications etc. (was: MSP430-Stamp) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-06 11:05 +0000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-05 11:01 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2014-06-06 01:09 +0200
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 22:01 -0400
        Re: MSP430-Stamp stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2014-05-31 16:47 +0000
    Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-05-30 12:11 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-06 12:54 +0200
  Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-02 11:39 +0200
    Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 12:15 -0400
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-03 10:26 +0200
        Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-03 12:18 -0400
    Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-02 10:04 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-03 11:51 +0200
        Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-03 13:33 -0400
          Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-06 13:02 +0200
            Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 17:31 -0400
              Re: MSP430-Stamp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-06 16:30 -1000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 22:52 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-07 11:58 +0000
              Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-07 11:40 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 20:01 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-08 16:05 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-08 22:28 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Gary Bergstrom <forthprgrmr@gmail.com> - 2014-06-08 20:36 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-08 21:38 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 14:36 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 02:45 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 03:18 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 15:57 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-08 16:20 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-03 20:42 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-03 21:05 -0700
            Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-04 10:43 +0000
        Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-03 21:28 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-06-03 22:43 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-03 23:31 -0700
            Re: MSP430-Stamp "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-06-04 04:13 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-03 01:41 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-06-03 01:51 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-03 16:19 +0100
          Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-03 09:14 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-03 13:19 -0400
            Re: MSP430-Stamp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-03 07:43 -1000
              Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-03 20:56 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-04 10:51 +0000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp VisualForth <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-06-04 04:06 -0700
  Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 21:26 -0400
    Re: MSP430-Stamp "VisualForth.com" <babruehl@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 20:40 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 03:18 -0700
  Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 04:35 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-07 12:01 -0700
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 03:47 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 09:28 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-11 07:35 -0700
            Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-11 10:43 -0700
              Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-11 15:52 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2014-06-12 02:06 +0200
                Re: MSP430-Stamp "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2014-06-11 15:13 -1000
                Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-12 02:16 -0700
            Re: MSP430-Stamp Mikael Nordman <oh2aun@gmail.com> - 2014-06-11 12:56 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 16:46 -0400
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 03:49 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-09 09:47 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp Rikard Lang <rikard.lang@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 23:16 +0200
      Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-10 07:48 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-11 07:23 -0700
          Re: MSP430-Stamp David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2014-06-11 18:00 -0500
            Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-12 02:14 -0400
              Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-12 02:13 -0700
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-12 13:04 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2014-06-12 18:06 -0500
                Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-12 19:29 -0400
                Re: MSP430-Stamp David Schultz <abuse@127.0.0.1> - 2014-06-13 18:48 -0500
      Re: MSP430-Stamp Mark Wills <markwills1970@gmail.com> - 2014-06-11 07:26 -0700
        Re: MSP430-Stamp visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2014-06-11 10:45 -0700
  Re: MSP430-Stamp JUERGEN <epldfpga@aol.com> - 2014-06-13 00:03 -0700
    Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-18 11:11 +0200
      Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-06-18 05:27 -0400
        Re: MSP430-Stamp Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2014-06-18 12:29 +0200
          Re: MSP430-Stamp rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 16:09 -0400

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