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Re: Function Points

From Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Function Points
References (1 earlier) <zLadneWS6uQoBKnNnZ2dnUVZ8oednZ2d@supernews.com> <8545a450-d245-46ea-93cf-0b34a7bdbf8d@googlegroups.com> <2012Aug23.165054@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <7x8vd5jvoh.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <2012Aug25.161317@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
Date 2012-08-25 10:12 -0700
Message-ID <7x8vd299q5.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> (permalink)
Organization Nightsong/Fort GNOX

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anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
> The Haskell system was actually Hugs, not GHC, but the quality of the
> error messages is due to the type system, so I would not expect any
> better from a different Haskell system

I suggest trying GHC.  Its messages are better, though still not that
great.  Nobody uses Hugs much any more, afaik.

> Concerning being worth, I have far fewer type errors in Forth than in
> Haskell.

Do you mean type errors that the compiler didn't notice?  Forth of
course ignores type errors at compile time.  I'd ask how many Forth
runtime errors would have been caught by Haskell's type system at
compile time.  When I wrote my first nontrivial Forth program, I several
times said + when I meant F+, and of course the runtime happily added
the wrong two stack items, causing later crashes that I then had to
debug.  That was much more annoying than just having the compiler flag
the error.

> Maybe that just reflects my familiarity with the languages,

That could be, though Haskell is just typed lambda calculus with syntax
sugar.  If you erase all the types and syntax, you're left with
something like Scheme, modulo lazy evaluation.  And it's quite easy to
make type errors in Scheme.

Haskell's type system makes it feasible to write maintainable code in a
quite abstract style involving higher-order functions, parametrized data
types, and so on.  This can also be done in Forth or Scheme but it gets
confusing rather quickly.  Having a computer keep track of the types
takes cognitive burden off of the programmer, and makes refactoring
easier (just fix the resulting type errors until the compiler stops
complaining, and you probably have working code).

> Anyway, my conclusion is that, while type inference sounds cool in
> theory, it has more disadvantages than advantages in practice.  One of
> the disadvantages probably is that it allows a complex type system
> that would be totally impractical without type inference; and the
> Haskell designers went that way.

Preferred Haskell style is to write explicit type annotations on all
top-level functions, and this helps keep the error messages useful.
ML's type system is less fancy than Haskell's and I think it's more
practical in ML to not write any annotations and rely completely on
inference.  Writing top-level annotations isn't all that bothersome, and
they serve as machine-checked documentation among other things.

Preferred Forth style also involves writing type annotations (stack
diagrams) on all functions.  The compiler just doesn't bother checking
them.

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Thread

Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-08-21 21:43 -0700
  Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-08-22 07:07 +0200
  Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-22 03:35 -0500
    Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 14:06 -0700
      Function Points (was: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-23 14:50 +0000
        Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-23 11:43 -0700
          Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-25 14:13 +0000
            Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-25 10:12 -0700
              Re: Function Points Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 15:39 -0400
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-25 15:09 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-25 12:34 -1000
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-25 16:43 -0700
                Re: Function Points jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 18:05 -0700
                Re: Function Points jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 20:34 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-26 03:24 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-25 22:44 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-25 21:19 -1000
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-26 00:36 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-25 21:50 -1000
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-26 01:08 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-26 23:20 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-26 19:33 -0700
                Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-27 13:34 -0500
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-27 22:38 +0200
                Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-28 02:45 -0500
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-27 18:14 -0700
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-27 18:24 -0700
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-30 14:22 +0000
                Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-28 03:07 -0500
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-28 08:18 -0700
                Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-28 12:15 -0500
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-28 23:05 -0700
                Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-29 03:55 -0500
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-27 22:28 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-27 20:26 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-28 23:17 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-29 01:13 -0700
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-29 02:23 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-30 02:59 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-29 22:18 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-30 20:44 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-31 01:29 -0700
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-31 09:33 +0000
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-30 02:58 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-29 19:39 -0700
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-30 14:10 +0000
                Re: Function Points gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-08-30 20:08 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-30 17:47 -1000
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-27 13:43 -1000
                Re: Function Points "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-08-27 12:14 +0100
                Re: Function Points Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-27 05:12 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-08-27 15:52 +0100
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-26 13:09 +0000
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-27 20:52 -0700
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-30 14:08 +0000
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-30 10:43 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-30 08:25 -1000
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-30 22:42 +0200
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-31 01:23 -0400
                Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-31 03:08 -0500
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-31 18:56 -0400
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-01 02:35 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-31 23:52 -0700
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-01 14:27 +0000
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-01 14:18 +0000
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-01 17:45 +0200
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-01 16:14 +0000
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-01 19:13 +0200
                Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-09-02 03:19 -0500
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-01 16:18 -0400
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 03:04 +0200
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 04:02 -0400
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 17:40 +0200
                Re: Function Points jim@rainbarrel.com - 2012-09-02 10:32 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 20:49 +0200
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 16:33 -0400
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 17:03 -0400
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-02 09:02 -1000
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 16:35 -0400
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-02 13:42 -1000
                Re: Function Points jim@rainbarrel.com - 2012-09-02 16:54 -0700
                Re: Function Points Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-03 00:29 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-03 01:30 -0400
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-02 21:21 -1000
                Re: Function Points jim@rainbarrel.com - 2012-09-03 10:37 -0700
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-04 07:14 +0000
                Re: Function Points Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-09-03 21:12 +0200
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-03 17:32 -0400
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-03 17:51 -0400
                Re: Function Points John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-03 22:37 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-04 04:25 -0400
                Re: Function Points John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-04 07:35 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-05 02:13 -0400
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-04 20:18 -1000
                Re: Function Points John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-05 10:56 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-05 16:11 -0400
                Re: Function Points John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-05 14:07 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 16:27 -0400
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-03 00:52 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-02 16:28 -0700
                Re: Function Points jim@rainbarrel.com - 2012-09-02 16:48 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 20:21 -0400
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-02 14:45 -1000
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-03 01:12 -0400
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-02 21:26 -1000
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-03 01:06 -0400
                Re: Function Points Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-31 03:29 -0700
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-31 10:35 +0000
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-31 18:49 -0400
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-01 14:49 +0000
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-01 08:36 -1000
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-01 16:11 -0400
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-03 01:58 +0200
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-01 17:54 +0200
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-01 16:19 -0400
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 03:05 +0200
                Re: Function Points Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-08-31 23:10 +0200
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-31 15:50 -1000
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-01 10:31 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-01 21:52 +0200
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-01 16:36 -0400
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-01 14:36 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 03:30 +0200
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 23:15 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-02 15:02 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-03 01:50 +0200
                Re: Function Points jim@rainbarrel.com - 2012-09-02 16:57 -0700
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-03 23:11 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-04 14:30 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-04 10:14 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-04 22:10 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-06 00:19 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-06 17:48 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-06 12:01 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-06 22:02 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-06 14:19 -0700
                Heap (was: Function Points) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-07 11:30 +0000
                Re: Heap (was: Function Points) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-07 18:12 +0200
                Re: Heap (was: Function Points) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-07 16:48 +0000
                Re: Heap (was: Function Points) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-07 21:34 +0200
                Re: Heap Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-09-07 22:04 +0100
                Re: Heap anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-08 11:52 +0000
                Re: Heap Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-08 22:48 +0200
                Re: Heap (was: Function Points) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-08 12:11 +0000
                priority queue (was: Function Points) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-03 11:46 +0000
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-03 15:03 +0200
                Re: Function Points mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-09-03 22:36 +0200
                Re: Function Points mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-09-06 20:27 +0200
                Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-09-02 04:00 -0500
                Re: Function Points visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-09-03 10:40 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-03 20:26 +0200
                Re: Function Points Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-08-27 11:49 -0400
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-27 09:16 -0700
                Re: Function Points Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-08-28 22:46 +0000
                Re: Function Points jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-08-28 16:06 -0700
                Re: Function Points Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-08-28 20:50 -0400
              Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-26 12:59 +0000
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-26 22:24 -0700
        Re: Function Points (was: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages) John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 15:02 -0700
          Re: Function Points (was: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-25 14:57 +0000
  Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-22 08:07 -0400
    Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-08-22 08:12 -0700
  Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-08-22 07:37 -0700

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