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Groups > comp.lang.forth > #15373

Re: Function Points

From "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm>
Newsgroups comp.lang.forth
Subject Re: Function Points
Date 2012-09-01 16:11 -0400
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <k1tpvh$sof$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References (7 earlier) <2250796.QNINORRiYk@sunwukong.fritz.box> <0db22181-f310-4f01-89af-6ec4cf68e99d@u15g2000yql.googlegroups.com> <2012Aug31.123502@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <k1resn$io5$1@speranza.aioe.org> <2012Sep1.164922@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>

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"Anton Ertl" <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote in message
news:2012Sep1.164922@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at...
> "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> writes:
> >"Anton Ertl" <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote in message
> >news:2012Aug31.123502@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at...
...

> >> [...] and they are the source of many buffer overflows.
> >
> >False.
> >
> >They _can_ be the source of _some_ buffer overflows.  I think you're
> > basing this claim of "many" on the fact that someone created strlcpy()
> > and strlcat().
>
> I am actually basing this on reading reports on vulnerabilities that
> mentioned unsafe use of strcpy() or strcat() as cause for the
> vulnerability.  At first I wondered why these functions would cause a
> buffer overflow, given that the source string(s) is/are already in
> memory and have passed the input checks on the inputs, but after some
> time, I saw how typical C idioms might lead to such vulnerabilities.

From what I've seen, Forth's faults appear to be almost identical to those
you believe are dangerous for C.

Are you saying I can't CMOVE> doesn't copy into a buffer of unknown size
just like C's strcpy()?  CMOVE> doesn't take a size for the destination
buffer.  It takes a size for the source buffer.  Look it up.  I.e., someone
can overflow the destination in Forth just like in C.  Where's Forth fixed
version of CMOVE> ?

> >The solution to that is to *not* fix the functions.  The
> >solution is to use two stacks, ala Forth.
>
> That will make attacks a little harder, but is not a proper solution.

Given the constraint of someone designing a new language, I'd agree that it
isn't a proper solution to the problem.  However, it is a proper solution to
a language which has been in use for at least four decades.  It doesn't
interfere with the existing language.

I seem to recall you and others here making the same basic argument in
regards to "preserve the existing name" when asked why Forth creates new
odd names for updated versions of Forth words.

> As long as there are arbitrarily indirect pointers to code (and the
> code is eventually executed through that indirection chain), a buffer
> overflow that can manipulate such a pointer can make the program try
> to execute code at any address.

How is the XT from ' (tick) any different from a function pointer in C?

How is storing an XT in a word to be executed any different from a function
pointer in a struct in C?  If it's changed by being overwritten it can
execute any arbitrary Forth code and non-Forth code too.

This Chinese attributed proverb comes to mind:
"Don't complain about the snow on your neighbor's roof when your own
doorstep is unclean.".

I.e., it seems like you're complaining about C's problems when Forth has the
same problems.

Also, that comes with the constraint that there is no protection of code
spaces from being written with data, and data spaces being prevented from
executing code.  That was true for decades, but not anymore.  Modern
microprocessor architectures have execution prevention.

> > But, I don't see how any of this is that much different from Forth.
> > Forth has a number of problems that can be exploited too.  Allowing
> > users to directly access the control-flow stack via >R R> R@ allows
> > for a variety control-flow attacks.
>
> >R R> R@ accesses the return stack, not the control-flow stack.
>

... which is typically the control-flow stack for Forth interpreters.

Let's say you have two users: one with a C compiler on an OS coded in C and
another with a Forth compiler on an OS coded in Forth (assume one exists).
C doesn't provide direct access to it's control-flow.  One must abuse C
functions to create a breach.  Forth typically did (or does) provide direct
access via R> >R to control-flow.  I.e., no abuse needed.

> If you let write your application such that an untrusted end user can
> manipulate the return stack arbitrarily, sure, you have opened up a
> big hole.

That's true for C too, in the sense that the end user can't manipulate C's
control flow for a compiled application, if coded correctly.  Someone has to
make a mistake, or the OS allows untrusted code.

> Most applications don't allow arbitrary manipulations of
> the return stack to end-users, though.

That's true for C too, in the sense that the end user can't manipulate C's
control flow for a compiled application, if coded correctly.  Someone has to
make a mistake, or the OS allows untrusted code.


Rod Pemberton

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Thread

Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-08-21 21:43 -0700
  Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages "A. K." <akk@nospam.org> - 2012-08-22 07:07 +0200
  Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-22 03:35 -0500
    Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 14:06 -0700
      Function Points (was: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-23 14:50 +0000
        Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-23 11:43 -0700
          Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-25 14:13 +0000
            Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-25 10:12 -0700
              Re: Function Points Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 15:39 -0400
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-25 15:09 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-25 12:34 -1000
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-25 16:43 -0700
                Re: Function Points jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 18:05 -0700
                Re: Function Points jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 20:34 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-26 03:24 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-25 22:44 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-25 21:19 -1000
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-26 00:36 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-25 21:50 -1000
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-26 01:08 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-26 23:20 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-26 19:33 -0700
                Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-27 13:34 -0500
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-27 22:38 +0200
                Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-28 02:45 -0500
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-27 18:14 -0700
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-27 18:24 -0700
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-30 14:22 +0000
                Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-28 03:07 -0500
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-28 08:18 -0700
                Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-28 12:15 -0500
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-28 23:05 -0700
                Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-29 03:55 -0500
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-27 22:28 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-27 20:26 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-28 23:17 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-29 01:13 -0700
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-29 02:23 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-30 02:59 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-29 22:18 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-30 20:44 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-31 01:29 -0700
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-31 09:33 +0000
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-30 02:58 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-29 19:39 -0700
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-30 14:10 +0000
                Re: Function Points gavino_himself <visploveslisp@gmail.com> - 2012-08-30 20:08 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-30 17:47 -1000
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-27 13:43 -1000
                Re: Function Points "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-08-27 12:14 +0100
                Re: Function Points Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-27 05:12 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Paul E. Bennett" <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2012-08-27 15:52 +0100
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-26 13:09 +0000
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-27 20:52 -0700
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-30 14:08 +0000
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-30 10:43 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-30 08:25 -1000
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-08-30 22:42 +0200
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-31 01:23 -0400
                Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-08-31 03:08 -0500
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-31 18:56 -0400
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-01 02:35 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-31 23:52 -0700
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-01 14:27 +0000
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-01 14:18 +0000
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-01 17:45 +0200
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-01 16:14 +0000
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-01 19:13 +0200
                Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-09-02 03:19 -0500
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-01 16:18 -0400
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 03:04 +0200
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 04:02 -0400
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 17:40 +0200
                Re: Function Points jim@rainbarrel.com - 2012-09-02 10:32 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 20:49 +0200
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 16:33 -0400
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 17:03 -0400
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-02 09:02 -1000
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 16:35 -0400
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-02 13:42 -1000
                Re: Function Points jim@rainbarrel.com - 2012-09-02 16:54 -0700
                Re: Function Points Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-03 00:29 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-03 01:30 -0400
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-02 21:21 -1000
                Re: Function Points jim@rainbarrel.com - 2012-09-03 10:37 -0700
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-04 07:14 +0000
                Re: Function Points Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-09-03 21:12 +0200
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-03 17:32 -0400
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-03 17:51 -0400
                Re: Function Points John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-03 22:37 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-04 04:25 -0400
                Re: Function Points John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-04 07:35 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-05 02:13 -0400
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-04 20:18 -1000
                Re: Function Points John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-05 10:56 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-05 16:11 -0400
                Re: Function Points John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-09-05 14:07 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 16:27 -0400
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-03 00:52 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-02 16:28 -0700
                Re: Function Points jim@rainbarrel.com - 2012-09-02 16:48 -0700
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-02 20:21 -0400
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-02 14:45 -1000
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-03 01:12 -0400
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-02 21:26 -1000
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-03 01:06 -0400
                Re: Function Points Mark Wills <markrobertwills@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-31 03:29 -0700
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-31 10:35 +0000
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-31 18:49 -0400
                Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-01 14:49 +0000
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-09-01 08:36 -1000
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-01 16:11 -0400
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-03 01:58 +0200
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-01 17:54 +0200
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-01 16:19 -0400
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 03:05 +0200
                Re: Function Points Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2012-08-31 23:10 +0200
                Re: Function Points "Elizabeth D. Rather" <erather@forth.com> - 2012-08-31 15:50 -1000
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-01 10:31 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-01 21:52 +0200
                Re: Function Points "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-09-01 16:36 -0400
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-01 14:36 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 03:30 +0200
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-02 23:15 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-02 15:02 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-03 01:50 +0200
                Re: Function Points jim@rainbarrel.com - 2012-09-02 16:57 -0700
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-03 23:11 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-04 14:30 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-04 10:14 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-04 22:10 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-06 00:19 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-06 17:48 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-06 12:01 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-06 22:02 +0200
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-06 14:19 -0700
                Heap (was: Function Points) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-07 11:30 +0000
                Re: Heap (was: Function Points) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-07 18:12 +0200
                Re: Heap (was: Function Points) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-07 16:48 +0000
                Re: Heap (was: Function Points) Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-07 21:34 +0200
                Re: Heap Gerry Jackson <gerry@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk> - 2012-09-07 22:04 +0100
                Re: Heap anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-08 11:52 +0000
                Re: Heap Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-08 22:48 +0200
                Re: Heap (was: Function Points) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-08 12:11 +0000
                priority queue (was: Function Points) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-09-03 11:46 +0000
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-03 15:03 +0200
                Re: Function Points mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-09-03 22:36 +0200
                Re: Function Points mhx@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix) - 2012-09-06 20:27 +0200
                Re: Function Points Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2012-09-02 04:00 -0500
                Re: Function Points visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-09-03 10:40 -0700
                Re: Function Points Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> - 2012-09-03 20:26 +0200
                Re: Function Points Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-08-27 11:49 -0400
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-27 09:16 -0700
                Re: Function Points Josh Grams <josh@qualdan.com> - 2012-08-28 22:46 +0000
                Re: Function Points jacko <jackokring@gmail.com> - 2012-08-28 16:06 -0700
                Re: Function Points Doug Hoffman <glidedog@gmail.com> - 2012-08-28 20:50 -0400
              Re: Function Points anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-26 12:59 +0000
                Re: Function Points Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-26 22:24 -0700
        Re: Function Points (was: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages) John Passaniti <john.passaniti@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 15:02 -0700
          Re: Function Points (was: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages) anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) - 2012-08-25 14:57 +0000
  Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages "Rod Pemberton" <do_not_have@notemailnot.cmm> - 2012-08-22 08:07 -0400
    Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-08-22 08:12 -0700
  Re: Comparative Productivity of Programming Languages visualforth@rocketmail.com - 2012-08-22 07:37 -0700

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