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Re: Fresh packaging ideas

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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In message <ba56ac5352.martin@blueyonder.co.uk>
 on 18 Jan 2012 Martin Bazley  wrote:

> My extremely sketchy plan for its replacement dispenses with repos
> altogether, and instead of referring to each package by its name,
> uniquely identifies each one by the URL its information should be
> downloaded from.  Usually, this would be hosted on an author's own page,
> hence creating the minimum of friction with the present system, although
> I could foresee like-minded authors pooling webspace/hosting costs to
> create a pseudo-'repository' of sorts - but the important thing is that
> this wouldn't be compulsory, merely neater.

I do not see how this offers any advantages over a repository system.  How I
see it is that a packaging system, to be worthwhile, must offer at least the
following:

a) a means of browsing software packages and selecting them for installation
b) a means of telling the user about updates to software that is installed
c) a means of installing other bits and pieces that the software depends on

How, in your system, does the PackMan replacement know what software is out
there and satisfy requirement (a)?  How, if someone else takes over the
software and offers updates from a new site (as has happened recently with
!PDF) does the system satisfy (b)?

As I believe was noted in other threads, it is perfectly possible with a
conventional packaging system to add multiple sources: any number of
repositories can be supported.  At the extreme you could have one
repository per author, or one repository per application.  We currently have
two repositories for RISC OS, one at riscpkg.org and one at riscos.info but
it's quite open to me, for example, to create a respository at
sinenomine.co.uk and package up my software there.  All I would have to do is
persuade the users to add my repository to their PackMan config, and it would
all work.

So authors are free to do this now.  But of course unless you have acertain
critical mass of useful stuff in your repository, no-one is going to bother
to configure that extra repository in the package manager, so I would
probably be better off creating pacakages and adding them to one of the two
existing repositories.  I would get more exposure that way.

In your suggestion, how does the user and the package installer tool know
where all these apps are?  At the least the URLs of all the application zip
files have to be listed centrally somewhere.  Is that so much easier to
create than a repository?

I see you've given more details later, with the riscpkg:// suggestion.  Does
the software developer put a riscpkg:// URL in his or her posting on
csa.announce then?  He/she would also have to put an ordinary URL for those
heretics who do not like the new-fangled way of doing things.

If we're going to do this, why not go with the existing repository idea,
and have a riscpkg:// URL simply add a new source to PackMan?  Then the
independent-minded software author can set up and maintain his/her own
repository easily, satisfying your objections to central repositories, but we
can nevertheless retain the current infrastructure, which already has
significant backing from things like the autobuilder packages on riscos.info.

With the state of RISC OS development at the moment, we should not be
throwing away what we have and starting from scratch: we need to build on
what's already there.

> What I'd really love would be for the absolute minimum specification of a
> valid package to match up perfectly with the currently accepted practice of
> distributing manually-installed software - that is to say, a zip file
> containing an application, maybe a couple of preliminary text files,
> possibly some extras/helper apps/resource files, and a skeleton !Boot
> structure containing anything which should go in Resources, !System,
> Choices, !Fonts, etc.  (That's assuming the presence of a universal
> command-line boot merge utility, something currently lacking.) Then
> everyone could transition to a package manager with the minimum of effort,
> albeit obviously with all the bits which make package management worthwhile
> missing.

I think that's the big problem with this suggestion: all the bits which make
package management worthwhile would be missing.

I think that the way forward is as Theo has outlined:

Improve PackMan and the underlying library so that:

a) the user gets the choice of where on the hard drive to install the
application

b) the manager can cope with the user then moving it (e.g. locating via
system variables if the app has been seen already, or asking the user to
locate it)

c) better handling of module installation and existing unmanaged components
by using an improved Boot Merge command line tool.

-- 
Matthew Phillips
Durham

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Thread

Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-15 17:02 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas Jim Nagel <jimnewsm10d@abbeypress.co.uk> - 2012-01-16 11:39 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas wpb <w.blatchley@yahoo.com> - 2012-01-16 05:49 -0800
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> - 2012-01-16 19:01 +0000
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 13:04 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas wpb <w.blatchley@yahoo.com> - 2012-01-17 23:01 -0800
        Re: Fresh packaging ideas Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 15:16 +0000
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 22:32 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 07:37 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas News Poster <workstuff@mail.com> - 2012-01-16 11:46 -0800
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-16 14:39 -0800
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 22:23 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-18 05:04 -0800
        Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 21:33 +0000
          Re: Fresh packaging ideas "David Holden" <SpamBin@apdl.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 08:03 +0000
            Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-19 11:46 +0000
            Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-19 05:45 -0800
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas News poster <news@mistymornings.net> - 2012-01-19 19:35 +0100
          Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 08:09 +0000
            Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 19:36 +0000
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-19 20:27 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 21:18 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 23:01 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 20:22 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 09:02 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 09:04 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Jess Hampshire <jesshampshire@googlemail.com> - 2012-01-23 19:43 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas wpb <w.blatchley@yahoo.com> - 2012-01-23 21:30 -0800
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-25 16:18 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-25 18:15 +0100
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 21:55 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-19 23:02 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 19:48 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 20:44 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-20 21:10 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 00:51 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 04:39 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-21 15:34 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 04:32 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 04:44 +0100
          Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-19 13:53 +0000
            Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 20:56 +0000
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 13:32 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Patric@invalid.com - 2012-01-20 16:16 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2012-01-21 09:55 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Fred Bambrough <fred@[127.0.0.1]> - 2012-01-21 11:00 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 19:04 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 19:09 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Ron Briscoe <ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 20:18 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Patric@invalid.com - 2012-01-21 23:21 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 23:28 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 04:18 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-22 07:51 -0800
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Frank de Bruijn <zuiderduin@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-23 08:13 +0100
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-23 05:06 -0800
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-23 21:32 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-24 05:05 -0800
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-25 22:41 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-26 15:33 +0100
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 06:39 +0100
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 23:10 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 09:26 +0100
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 23:10 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 15:20 +0000
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Gavin Wraith <gavin@wra1th.plus.com> - 2012-01-17 16:33 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas Chris Johnson <chrisjohnson+news@spamcop.net> - 2012-01-17 17:02 +0000
        Re: Fresh packaging ideas Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> - 2012-01-21 15:12 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas  <news@iank.org.uk> - 2012-01-28 12:19 +0000

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