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Re: Fresh packaging ideas

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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The following bytes were arranged on 19 Jan 2012 by Matthew Phillips :

> In message <ba56ac5352.martin@blueyonder.co.uk>
>  on 18 Jan 2012 Martin Bazley  wrote:

[snip]

> > Then everyone could transition to a package manager with the minimum
> > of effort, albeit obviously with all the bits which make package
> > management worthwhile missing.
>
> I think that's the big problem with this suggestion: all the bits which make
> package management worthwhile would be missing.

I think you've missed my point, both here and in your objections to
abolishing repositories.

The fact is: creating and maintaining a repository is not trivial, and
the package format itself currently has an extremely high technical
barrier to entry.  I know you desperately want to force everyone to do
it 'properly' straight from the get-go, but that's not a credible
proposition except with the aid of ludicrous amounts of optimism.  If we
carry on as we are, even if the most gaping flaws in RiscPkg are patched
up, uptake will still be extremely low - and that is, quite simply,
because most applications have not been packaged, and probably never
will be.

I know I said not having the bits which make package management
worthwhile would be a big problem (although, if you read my post
properly, you'll see I suggested a way in which automatic updating could
be implemented), but you have to be realistic about this.  How long did
it take before a majority of software could be run on the Iyonix without
the aid of Aemulor?  Do you really think that takeup of packaging will
be encouraged in the least helped by instantly excluding 90% of all RISC
OS software from people who use it?

A similar principle applies to repositories.  Like it or not, a lot -
possibly a majority - of RISC OS software will never be in one.  Perhaps
that's because nobody's seen fit to package it yet, perhaps it's because
someone with write access to the repo didn't notice it, perhaps it's
because the author refuses to allow it (which some do).  Repos are a far
more practical suggestion in the Linux software scene (not that they
worked out great there either), but RISC OS's developers are far more
idiosyncratic.

And having separate people to write and package software - it's already
the case for 99% of software, and will continue to be so due to the
aforementioned reluctance among developers to learn about the complex
new system - is a complete nightmare in the making.  How long might pass
between a new release being made on comp.sys.acorn.announce and a new
package being available for those poor users of RiscPkg?  What if it's
never publicly announced at all (or only announced on a private mailing
list), but simply appears on the author's website, as is increasingly
the case?

Would you rather have mediocre package management, or no package
management at all?

When the new package format is designed, it must put simplicity first,
and the manager must be able to fill in sensible default values for,
preferably, every field.  This isn't because it'll theoretically deliver
the finest possible package solution for the RISC OS community, but
because it will, in practice, deliver any package solution at all.

Everyone: less of the wide-eyed idealism, please.  If we're too pure and
precious about the principles of packaging, then all that will happen is
you'll scare the takeup away.

-- 
  __<^>__   === RISC OS is a work of art.  Some people adore it,  ===
 / _   _ \  === others can't see the point of it, and it's really ===
( ( |_| ) ) === expensive.                                        ===
 \_>   <_/  ======================= Martin Bazley ===================

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Thread

Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-15 17:02 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas Jim Nagel <jimnewsm10d@abbeypress.co.uk> - 2012-01-16 11:39 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas wpb <w.blatchley@yahoo.com> - 2012-01-16 05:49 -0800
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> - 2012-01-16 19:01 +0000
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 13:04 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas wpb <w.blatchley@yahoo.com> - 2012-01-17 23:01 -0800
        Re: Fresh packaging ideas Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 15:16 +0000
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 22:32 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 07:37 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas News Poster <workstuff@mail.com> - 2012-01-16 11:46 -0800
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-16 14:39 -0800
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 22:23 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-18 05:04 -0800
        Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 21:33 +0000
          Re: Fresh packaging ideas "David Holden" <SpamBin@apdl.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 08:03 +0000
            Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-19 11:46 +0000
            Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-19 05:45 -0800
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas News poster <news@mistymornings.net> - 2012-01-19 19:35 +0100
          Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 08:09 +0000
            Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 19:36 +0000
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-19 20:27 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 21:18 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 23:01 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 20:22 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 09:02 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 09:04 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Jess Hampshire <jesshampshire@googlemail.com> - 2012-01-23 19:43 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas wpb <w.blatchley@yahoo.com> - 2012-01-23 21:30 -0800
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-25 16:18 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-25 18:15 +0100
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 21:55 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-19 23:02 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 19:48 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 20:44 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-20 21:10 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 00:51 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 04:39 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-21 15:34 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 04:32 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 04:44 +0100
          Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-19 13:53 +0000
            Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 20:56 +0000
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 13:32 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Patric@invalid.com - 2012-01-20 16:16 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2012-01-21 09:55 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Fred Bambrough <fred@[127.0.0.1]> - 2012-01-21 11:00 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 19:04 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 19:09 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Ron Briscoe <ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 20:18 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Patric@invalid.com - 2012-01-21 23:21 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 23:28 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 04:18 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-22 07:51 -0800
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Frank de Bruijn <zuiderduin@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-23 08:13 +0100
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-23 05:06 -0800
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-23 21:32 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-24 05:05 -0800
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-25 22:41 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-26 15:33 +0100
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 06:39 +0100
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 23:10 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 09:26 +0100
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 23:10 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 15:20 +0000
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Gavin Wraith <gavin@wra1th.plus.com> - 2012-01-17 16:33 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas Chris Johnson <chrisjohnson+news@spamcop.net> - 2012-01-17 17:02 +0000
        Re: Fresh packaging ideas Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> - 2012-01-21 15:12 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas  <news@iank.org.uk> - 2012-01-28 12:19 +0000

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