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Re: Fresh packaging ideas

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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The following bytes were arranged on 19 Jan 2012 by Theo Markettos :

[snip]

> I think I see where you're coming from.  We currently have software
> represented by a series of isolated points (Zip archives) on isolated
> servers, with minimal relationship between them (except, say, the ARMv7
> compatibility list, or csa.announce postings, or random hyperlinks like the
> Acorn webring).  There's no way I can find out what's out there, because I
> can't travel from one point to another ('traversing the graph' in
> maths-speak).

I don't see why you'd want to.  I don't think package managers should
consider one of their primary purposes to be to aid the discovery of
software - that way lies control-freakery of the kind I've already seen
too much of.  Google will suffice.

> So there's two questions: one, how to make such Zip archives automatically
> installable

Your average software zip file contains an application directory,
possibly some boot components in skeleton directory structures with
defined names, and possibly some installation instructions.  Installing
that, except in the really kooky cases, is trivial even for a computer.

> The first is I suppose feasible, with quite a lot of heuristics, special
> casing, bodges etc.  Potentially it's a one-off: the system could be
> 'taught' how to install the package once, and then that applies to everyone.
> But the system will get caught out if the layout changes.

I sincerely hope no such thing gets implemented.  If the manager does
get tripped up, the best that can be done is to install the package
manually, just like previously.

(Probably the manager should offer a preview of what it's going to do,
and offer you the chance to decline and either give up or complete the
process by hand.)

> The second is a case of building links between points (programs or servers).
> The topology is variable - it could be a line, a star, a mesh, anything.
> Traversing the graph means something Google-like, following every link to
> see where it leads.  Potentially that crawler tool then provides us with the
> whole graph it found, so that every user doesn't have to scan the internet
> themselves.  Other than on a 'repository' server, I'm unclear where such
> links would get stored: there's not much motivation for J. Random Author to
> host links to other software (since he'll then have to keep them current).

No such links would exist, and the only 'repository' would be on the end
user's hard disc.  Obviously some useful links to software should be
supplied by default, but I don't think the main problem with installing
RISC OS software is an inability to find it in the first place.
(Centralised repos, on the other hand, make it *much* harder to find the
package you want than simply Googling for the author's home page,
particularly if it turns out you have to install an entire new repo.)

> This is actually quite a complex system, but let's put that to one side for
> the moment.  Questions:
>
> 1. Extracting version information from random zipfiles is hard (except for
> modules).  How do you propose this?  To a first approximation, we need to
> consider desktop applications, command line utilities (Absolute,
> Utility and BASIC), modules, system resources (Fonts etc).

Take the date stamp from the server and like it.  Anything else would
entail pointlessly downloading the file at random intervals.  Yes, this
is vulnerable to server-side cock-ups, random refreshes, etc., but the
worst that can happen is a bit of wasted bandwidth - which would have
been wasted anyway if you kept downloading that same zip to peek inside
its obey files.

> 2. How do you handle dependencies in this scheme?  (Accurate version
> information is needed for dependency checking)

You don't.  This is a 'bare bones' solution, to be encouraged only as a
transitional measure until packages become the norm, not the exception.

People didn't hold off 32-bitting their software just because Aemulor
was available, but you can bet people would have held off buying an
Iyonix if it wasn't.  (The lack of a similar solution for ARMv7 is still
making a lot of old-school users reluctant to buy an ARMini.)

> 3. How do you handle conflicts?

You don't.

> 4. How do you do sensible unmanned installation, without having to provide
> explicit information where every app goes?

I thought not being able to provide explicit information was one of
people's main beefs with RiscPkg?

I didn't propose the 'minimum baseline' bodge as a complete packaging
solution, only as something to sweeten the medicine and smooth the
transition.  My preference for a fully-fledged solution would be rather
more sophisticated (fleshed out slightly in my other post), but we do
need to keep the minimum-effort option open, because you've seen what
happens when we don't.

-- 
  __<^>__
 / _   _ \         You always find something in the last place you look.
( ( |_| ) )
 \_>   <_/  ======================= Martin Bazley ==========================

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Thread

Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-15 17:02 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas Jim Nagel <jimnewsm10d@abbeypress.co.uk> - 2012-01-16 11:39 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas wpb <w.blatchley@yahoo.com> - 2012-01-16 05:49 -0800
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> - 2012-01-16 19:01 +0000
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 13:04 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas wpb <w.blatchley@yahoo.com> - 2012-01-17 23:01 -0800
        Re: Fresh packaging ideas Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 15:16 +0000
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 22:32 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 07:37 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas News Poster <workstuff@mail.com> - 2012-01-16 11:46 -0800
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-16 14:39 -0800
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 22:23 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-18 05:04 -0800
        Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 21:33 +0000
          Re: Fresh packaging ideas "David Holden" <SpamBin@apdl.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 08:03 +0000
            Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-19 11:46 +0000
            Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-19 05:45 -0800
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas News poster <news@mistymornings.net> - 2012-01-19 19:35 +0100
          Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 08:09 +0000
            Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 19:36 +0000
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-19 20:27 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 21:18 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 23:01 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 20:22 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 09:02 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 09:04 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Jess Hampshire <jesshampshire@googlemail.com> - 2012-01-23 19:43 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas wpb <w.blatchley@yahoo.com> - 2012-01-23 21:30 -0800
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-25 16:18 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-25 18:15 +0100
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 21:55 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-19 23:02 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 19:48 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 20:44 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-20 21:10 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 00:51 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 04:39 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-21 15:34 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 04:32 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 04:44 +0100
          Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-19 13:53 +0000
            Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-19 20:56 +0000
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2012-01-20 13:32 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Patric@invalid.com - 2012-01-20 16:16 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2012-01-21 09:55 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Fred Bambrough <fred@[127.0.0.1]> - 2012-01-21 11:00 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 19:04 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 19:09 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Ron Briscoe <ron.briscoe@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 20:18 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Patric@invalid.com - 2012-01-21 23:21 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 23:28 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-21 04:18 +0100
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-22 07:51 -0800
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Frank de Bruijn <zuiderduin@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-23 08:13 +0100
              Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-23 05:06 -0800
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Martin Bazley <martin.bazley@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2012-01-23 21:32 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Alan <alan_baa@hotmail.com> - 2012-01-24 05:05 -0800
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-25 22:41 +0000
                Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-26 15:33 +0100
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 06:39 +0100
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 23:10 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-01-18 09:26 +0100
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> - 2012-01-17 23:10 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> - 2012-01-17 15:20 +0000
    Re: Fresh packaging ideas Gavin Wraith <gavin@wra1th.plus.com> - 2012-01-17 16:33 +0000
      Re: Fresh packaging ideas Chris Johnson <chrisjohnson+news@spamcop.net> - 2012-01-17 17:02 +0000
        Re: Fresh packaging ideas Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> - 2012-01-21 15:12 +0000
  Re: Fresh packaging ideas  <news@iank.org.uk> - 2012-01-28 12:19 +0000

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