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Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory

From Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com>
Newsgroups comp.theory
Subject Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory
Date 2025-10-15 16:38 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <20251015092748.515@kylheku.com> (permalink)
References (2 earlier) <10cn303$3cvon$1@dont-email.me> <20251014202441.931@kylheku.com> <10cn5ej$3dfdk$1@dont-email.me> <20251014213152.861@kylheku.com> <10co1fk$3kki0$1@dont-email.me>

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On 2025-10-15, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/15/2025 12:36 AM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>> On 2025-10-15, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 10/14/2025 10:34 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>> On 2025-10-15, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 10/14/2025 9:46 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>>>> On 2025-10-15, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 5. In short
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The halting problem as usually formalized is syntactically consistent
>>>>>>> only because it pretends that U(p) is well-defined for every p.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you interpret the definitions semantically — as saying that
>>>>>>> U(p) should simulate the behavior
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... then you're making a grievous mistake. The halting function doesn't
>>>>>> stipulate simulation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> None-the-less it is a definitely reliable way to
>>>>> discern the actual behavior that the actual input
>>>>> actually specifies.
>>>>
>>>> No, it isn't.  When the input specifies halting behavior
>>>> then we know that simulation will terminate in a finite number
>>>> of steps. In that case we discern that the input has terminated.
>>>>
>>>
>>> When the semantics of the language specify
>>> that when DD calls HHH(DD) that HHH must
>>> simulate an instance of itself simulating
>>> DD ChatGPT knows that this cannot be simply
>>> ignored.
>> 
>> It is obvious that when H denotes a simulator, then its diagonal program
>> D ends up infinite regress, and is nonterminating.
>> H(D) doesn't terminate, and fails to be a decider that way, not
>> on account of returning an incorrect value.
>> This situation is of no particular significance.
>> 
>> When H is a simulator equipped with some break condition by which it
>> stops simulating and returns a value, that H's diagonal program D
>> ensures that the return value is wrong; if the value is 0, D is
>> terminating.  
>
> With HHH(DD)==0 HHH is returning the correct value for
> the actual behavior of its actual input.

It simply isn't.

> That the directly
> executed DD() is not in the input domain of HHH makes
> what it does irrelevant.

There exists no difference between "simulated" and "directly executed".

The situation is that you have made up multiple terms for the same thing
and are insisting that there is a difference, which is just a
word semantics play and equivocation. The difference is not real in
the ontology of Turing machines.

Turing machines and recursive procedures are an abstraction.

Whenever we follow what they do, by any means, whether hardware,
software or pencil-and-paper, that is always a
simulation/interpretation.

The only thing that can make a simulation more or less direct is
translation.

"Direct execution" of C means interpreting the textual tokens of the
program; compiling to machine code is not "direct execution".

This has nothing to do with the way you are falsely calling "direct
execution".

> That the halting problem requires HHH to report on an
> input that it not in its domain makes the halting problem
> incoherent even at the purely mathematical level.

I made it clear to you that the input is constructable; thus the
situation can be made real, all the way to a physical realization.

You can build an input which incorporates a decision algorithm H, a
diagonal wrapper D, encode it into a finite string, and then have the
string processed by an implementation of algorithm H.

The string is a syntactically and semantically valid machine
representation and therefore lands squarely into the required domain.

-- 
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca

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The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 21:17 -0500
  Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 02:46 +0000
    Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 22:04 -0500
      Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 03:34 +0000
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 22:46 -0500
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 05:36 +0000
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 06:44 -0500
              Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 16:38 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 12:12 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-10-15 17:19 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 12:24 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-10-15 18:25 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:07 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 06:55 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-16 08:33 +0100
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:23 -0500
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:14 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 19:01 +0000
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:11 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 18:54 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:19 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 13:14 -0700
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 20:47 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 16:00 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 17:18 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 19:12 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 14:58 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 15:56 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-10-16 21:07 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 16:19 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-16 22:25 +0100
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 16:39 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 21:46 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 21:45 +0000
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 17:28 -0500
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-10-15 12:21 +0000
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 07:32 -0500
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory tTh <tth@none.invalid> - 2025-10-15 16:50 +0200
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 16:25 +0000
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-16 12:34 +0300
              Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:27 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 14:03 -0700
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-17 11:45 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-17 10:11 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-18 11:58 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-18 05:47 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-19 11:39 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-19 10:31 +0100
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-19 14:16 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-19 13:38 +0100
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 11:04 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 13:22 -0700
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 13:34 -0700
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 23:00 -0500
      Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-16 05:37 +0100
    Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-15 05:39 +0100
      Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 05:38 +0000
        The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 18:33 -0500
          Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Python <jpierre.messager@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 23:59 +0000
          Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-16 06:46 +0100
            Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:14 -0500
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-16 05:53 +0100
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 07:56 -0500
  Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-15 12:15 +0300
    Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 07:30 -0500
      Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-16 12:21 +0300
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:34 -0500
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 21:31 +0000
            The halting problem incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 17:04 -0500
              Re: The halting problem incoherent Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-17 11:59 +0300
                Re: The halting problem incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-17 06:47 -0500
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-17 11:54 +0300
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-17 10:15 -0500
              Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-19 11:42 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 11:08 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-19 18:43 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 10:24 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 17:18 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 12:34 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 17:41 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 12:47 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 18:09 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 13:42 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 19:21 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 14:30 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 22:15 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 17:33 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 17:43 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 15:59 -0700
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-20 23:58 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 19:07 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 01:32 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 20:38 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 02:00 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 21:21 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 03:22 +0000
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:37 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:45 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:51 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:55 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:09 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 08:09 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 08:30 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 09:34 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 09:45 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 10:51 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 10:17 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 11:19 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 10:26 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 11:31 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 11:17 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 12:57 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 05:42 +0000
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-21 06:55 +0100
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 01:37 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 16:22 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 20:55 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 02:15 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:02 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-20 20:59 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-20 12:22 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 12:06 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-22 11:51 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 07:22 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-23 13:04 +0300
    Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 13:08 -0700
  Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-16 07:55 -0400

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