Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory

From	olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.theory, sci.logic, comp.lang.c, sci.math
Subject	Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory
Date	2025-10-14 22:46 -0500
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<10cn5ej$3dfdk$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	<10cn08f$3c8c3$1@dont-email.me> <20251014193940.96@kylheku.com> <10cn303$3cvon$1@dont-email.me> <20251014202441.931@kylheku.com>

Cross-posted to 4 groups.

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On 10/14/2025 10:34 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> On 2025-10-15, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 10/14/2025 9:46 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>> On 2025-10-15, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 5. In short
>>>>
>>>> The halting problem as usually formalized is syntactically consistent
>>>> only because it pretends that U(p) is well-defined for every p.
>>>>
>>>> If you interpret the definitions semantically — as saying that
>>>> U(p) should simulate the behavior
>>>
>>> ... then you're making a grievous mistake. The halting function doesn't
>>> stipulate simulation.
>>>
>>
>> None-the-less it is a definitely reliable way to
>> discern the actual behavior that the actual input
>> actually specifies.
> 
> No, it isn't.  When the input specifies halting behavior
> then we know that simulation will terminate in a finite number
> of steps. In that case we discern that the input has terminated.
> 

When the semantics of the language specify
that when DD calls HHH(DD) that HHH must
simulate an instance of itself simulating
DD ChatGPT knows that this cannot be simply
ignored.

This is the thing that all five LLM systems
immediately figured out on their own.

> When the input does not terminate, simulation does not inform
> about this.
> 
> No matter how many steps of the simulation have occurred,
> there are always more steps, and we have no idea whether
> termination is coming.
> 
> In other words, simulation is not a halting decision algorithm.
> 
> Exhaustive simulation is what we must desperately avoid
> if we are to discern the halting behavior that
> the actual input specifies.
> 
> You are really not versed in the undergraduate rudiments
> of this problem, are you!
> 
>> The system that the halting problem assumes is
>> logically incoherent when  ...
> 
> when it is assumed that halting can be decided; but that inconsitency is
> resolved by concluding that halting is not decidable.
> 
> ... when you're a crazy crank on comp.theory, otherwise all good.
> 
>>     "You’re making a sharper claim now — that even
>>      as mathematics, the halting problem’s assumed
>>      system collapses when you take its own definitions
>>      seriously, without ignoring what they imply."
>>
> 
> I don't know who is supposed to be saying this and to whom;
> (Maybe one of your inner vocies to the other? or AI?)
> 
> Whoever is making this "sharper claim" is an absolute dullard.
> 
> The halting problem's assumed system does positively /not/
> collapse when you take its definitions seriously,
> and without ignoring what they imply.
> 
> (But when have you ever done that, come to think of it.)


-- 
Copyright 2025 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer

Thread

The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 21:17 -0500
  Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 02:46 +0000
    Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 22:04 -0500
      Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 03:34 +0000
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 22:46 -0500
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 05:36 +0000
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 06:44 -0500
              Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 16:38 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 12:12 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-10-15 17:19 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 12:24 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-10-15 18:25 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:07 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 06:55 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-16 08:33 +0100
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:23 -0500
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:14 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 19:01 +0000
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:11 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 18:54 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:19 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 13:14 -0700
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 20:47 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 16:00 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 17:18 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 19:12 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 14:58 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 15:56 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-10-16 21:07 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 16:19 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-16 22:25 +0100
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 16:39 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 21:46 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 21:45 +0000
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 17:28 -0500
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-10-15 12:21 +0000
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 07:32 -0500
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory tTh <tth@none.invalid> - 2025-10-15 16:50 +0200
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 16:25 +0000
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-16 12:34 +0300
              Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:27 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 14:03 -0700
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-17 11:45 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-17 10:11 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-18 11:58 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-18 05:47 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-19 11:39 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-19 10:31 +0100
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-19 14:16 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-19 13:38 +0100
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 11:04 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 13:22 -0700
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 13:34 -0700
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 23:00 -0500
      Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-16 05:37 +0100
    Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-15 05:39 +0100
      Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 05:38 +0000
        The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 18:33 -0500
          Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Python <jpierre.messager@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 23:59 +0000
          Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-16 06:46 +0100
            Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:14 -0500
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-16 05:53 +0100
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 07:56 -0500
  Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-15 12:15 +0300
    Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 07:30 -0500
      Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-16 12:21 +0300
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:34 -0500
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 21:31 +0000
            The halting problem incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 17:04 -0500
              Re: The halting problem incoherent Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-17 11:59 +0300
                Re: The halting problem incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-17 06:47 -0500
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-17 11:54 +0300
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-17 10:15 -0500
              Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-19 11:42 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 11:08 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-19 18:43 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 10:24 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 17:18 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 12:34 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 17:41 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 12:47 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 18:09 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 13:42 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 19:21 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 14:30 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 22:15 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 17:33 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 17:43 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 15:59 -0700
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-20 23:58 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 19:07 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 01:32 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 20:38 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 02:00 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 21:21 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 03:22 +0000
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:37 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:45 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:51 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:55 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:09 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 08:09 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 08:30 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 09:34 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 09:45 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 10:51 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 10:17 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 11:19 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 10:26 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 11:31 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 11:17 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 12:57 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 05:42 +0000
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-21 06:55 +0100
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 01:37 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 16:22 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 20:55 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 02:15 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:02 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-20 20:59 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-20 12:22 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 12:06 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-22 11:51 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 07:22 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-23 13:04 +0300
    Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 13:08 -0700
  Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-16 07:55 -0400

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