Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.theory > #132686

Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory

From Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com>
Newsgroups comp.theory
Subject Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory
Date 2025-10-15 05:36 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <20251014213152.861@kylheku.com> (permalink)
References <10cn08f$3c8c3$1@dont-email.me> <20251014193940.96@kylheku.com> <10cn303$3cvon$1@dont-email.me> <20251014202441.931@kylheku.com> <10cn5ej$3dfdk$1@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

On 2025-10-15, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/14/2025 10:34 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>> On 2025-10-15, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 10/14/2025 9:46 PM, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>>>> On 2025-10-15, olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 5. In short
>>>>>
>>>>> The halting problem as usually formalized is syntactically consistent
>>>>> only because it pretends that U(p) is well-defined for every p.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you interpret the definitions semantically — as saying that
>>>>> U(p) should simulate the behavior
>>>>
>>>> ... then you're making a grievous mistake. The halting function doesn't
>>>> stipulate simulation.
>>>>
>>>
>>> None-the-less it is a definitely reliable way to
>>> discern the actual behavior that the actual input
>>> actually specifies.
>> 
>> No, it isn't.  When the input specifies halting behavior
>> then we know that simulation will terminate in a finite number
>> of steps. In that case we discern that the input has terminated.
>> 
>
> When the semantics of the language specify
> that when DD calls HHH(DD) that HHH must
> simulate an instance of itself simulating
> DD ChatGPT knows that this cannot be simply
> ignored.

It is obvious that when H denotes a simulator, then its diagonal program
D ends up infinite regress, and is nonterminating.
H(D) doesn't terminate, and fails to be a decider that way, not
on account of returning an incorrect value.
This situation is of no particular significance.

When H is a simulator equipped with some break condition by which it
stops simulating and returns a value, that H's diagonal program D
ensures that the return value is wrong; if the value is 0, D is
terminating.  It is necessarily always the case that H will never
simulate D far enough to reproduce the situation where the
simulated H(D) returns a value to D. That is always out of reach
of H for one reason or another.

These observations are interesting, but ultimately of no significance;
there is no deep truth within.

When D is based on a breaking decider H, the "opposite behavior" of D
/is/ reached in a bona fide simulation (i.e. one not conducted by
a procedure other than H).

** Whether or not a calculation maps to a halting state is not
** determined by whether given simulations of it /demonstrate/
** that state or not.

> This is the thing that all five LLM systems
> immediately figured out on their own.

All five LLM systems, and throngs of CS undergraduates
during their first lecture on halting.


-- 
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca

Back to comp.theory | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 21:17 -0500
  Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 02:46 +0000
    Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 22:04 -0500
      Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 03:34 +0000
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 22:46 -0500
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 05:36 +0000
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 06:44 -0500
              Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 16:38 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 12:12 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-10-15 17:19 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 12:24 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-10-15 18:25 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:07 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 06:55 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-16 08:33 +0100
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:23 -0500
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:14 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 19:01 +0000
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:11 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 18:54 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 14:19 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 13:14 -0700
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 20:47 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 16:00 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 17:18 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 19:12 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 14:58 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 15:56 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> - 2025-10-16 21:07 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 16:19 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-16 22:25 +0100
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 16:39 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 21:46 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 21:45 +0000
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 17:28 -0500
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-10-15 12:21 +0000
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 07:32 -0500
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory tTh <tth@none.invalid> - 2025-10-15 16:50 +0200
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 16:25 +0000
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-16 12:34 +0300
              Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:27 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 14:03 -0700
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-17 11:45 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-17 10:11 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-18 11:58 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-18 05:47 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-19 11:39 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-19 10:31 +0100
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-19 14:16 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-19 13:38 +0100
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 11:04 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 13:22 -0700
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory -- application to c/c++ "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 13:34 -0700
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-14 23:00 -0500
      Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-16 05:37 +0100
    Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-15 05:39 +0100
      Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-15 05:38 +0000
        The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 18:33 -0500
          Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Python <jpierre.messager@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 23:59 +0000
          Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-16 06:46 +0100
            Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:14 -0500
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Tristan Wibberley <tristan.wibberley+netnews2@alumni.manchester.ac.uk> - 2025-10-16 05:53 +0100
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 07:56 -0500
  Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-15 12:15 +0300
    Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 07:30 -0500
      Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-16 12:21 +0300
        Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 08:34 -0500
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-16 21:31 +0000
            The halting problem incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-16 17:04 -0500
              Re: The halting problem incoherent Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-17 11:59 +0300
                Re: The halting problem incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-17 06:47 -0500
          Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-17 11:54 +0300
            Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-17 10:15 -0500
              Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-19 11:42 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-19 11:08 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-19 18:43 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 10:24 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 17:18 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 12:34 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 17:41 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 12:47 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 18:09 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 13:42 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 19:21 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 14:30 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory joes <noreply@example.org> - 2025-10-20 22:15 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 17:33 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 17:43 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 15:59 -0700
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-20 23:58 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 19:07 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 01:32 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 20:38 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 02:00 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 21:21 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 03:22 +0000
                The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:37 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:45 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:51 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:55 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 23:09 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 08:09 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 08:30 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 09:34 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 09:45 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 10:51 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 10:17 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 11:19 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 10:26 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 11:31 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 11:17 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent dbush <dbush.mobile@gmail.com> - 2025-10-23 12:57 -0400
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 05:42 +0000
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2025-10-21 06:55 +0100
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-21 01:37 -0500
                Re: The Halting Problem is Incoherent Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 16:22 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 20:55 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-21 02:15 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 22:02 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Kaz Kylheku <643-408-1753@kylheku.com> - 2025-10-20 20:59 +0000
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-20 12:22 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-20 12:06 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-22 11:51 +0300
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> - 2025-10-22 07:22 -0500
                Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2025-10-23 13:04 +0300
    Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-10-15 13:08 -0700
  Re: The halting problem is self-contradictory Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2025-10-16 07:55 -0400

csiph-web