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Re: std::map advocacy

From Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c++
Subject Re: std::map advocacy
Date 2024-04-09 02:20 +0300
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <20240409022003.000017fb@yahoo.com> (permalink)
References (9 earlier) <uv0dd7$3diif$1@dont-email.me> <20240408133457.000005a9@yahoo.com> <rGVQN.157772$_a1e.63952@fx16.iad> <20240409004750.0000131f@yahoo.com> <zG_QN.192549$taff.168760@fx41.iad>

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On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 23:00:47 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> writes:
> >On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 17:19:19 GMT
> >scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
> >  
> >> Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> writes:  
> >> >On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 11:29:11 +0200
> >> >David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> >> >    
> >> >> On 07/04/2024 18:35, Michael S wrote:
> >> >>     
> >> >> > Partially balanced binary trees, like those used by std::map
> >> >> > and by its relatives, are among the most predictable data
> >> >> > structures out here. Certainly they are far more predictable
> >> >> > than generic hash that in the worst case degenerates into
> >> >> > O(N). OTOH, in std::map of given size the difference in worst
> >> >> > access time between perfectly balanced case and most
> >> >> > unbalanced case is only 2x. And that applies not just for
> >> >> > lookup, but for insertion and deletion as well.
> >> >> >       
> >> >> 
> >> >> As far as I know, details of how containers such as std::map
> >> >> are implemented are left to the implementation - they are not
> >> >> guaranteed by the standards.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Different types of systems have different needs.  C++ supports a
> >> >> huge range of uses, and for some of them, many parts of the
> >> >> standard library are simply out of the question.  The point was
> >> >> just that claims such as Bonita's that "it is impossible to use
> >> >> C++ without exception[s]", or that if you don't use the standard
> >> >> library you are "missing most of C++", are just ignorant
> >> >> nonsense. People can choose what they need based on a range of
> >> >> requirements and preferences, and that's exactly what we want
> >> >> from a general-purpose language.   
> >> >
> >> >My opinion about standard library is very close to that Bonita,
> >> >even if possibly possibly for the opposite reasons.
> >> >IMHO, if you can't make good use of either C++ Standard library
> >> >or of the other key feature of the language - virtual functions,
> >> >then it is wiser to avoid C++ altogether.    
> >> 
> >> Now that's just as silly as Bonita's position
> >>   
> >> >BTW, I *don't* use C++ on small embedded targets.    
> >> 
> >> I do, and have.    Two operating commercial operating
> >> systems, a hypervisor, and SoC microcode; all in C++ (with some
> >> legacy C device drivers loaded dynamically).   Using a rational
> >> subset of C++ (with little run-time overhead) makes perfect
> >> sense for such an application given the data hiding and
> >> interface advantages of C++ over say, C.
> >>  
> >
> >What proof do you have that C++ was an advantage for your projects
> >rather than handicap?  
> 
> What proof would you except?  What makes you think proof is necessary?
> 
> >Unlike standard library, the things you mention don't sound like
> >something that directly improves productivity.  
> 
> Inheritance, pure-virtual (interface) classes leading to clean
> interfaces, improved type safety, 

Sounds like you misread my original post.
I wrote that use of virtual function is a sufficient justification for
choice of C++ over C. 
What I didn't wrote, but had in mind was "when inheritence used to
implement interfaces, preferably with abstract base classes and *not*
used for anything else."

> destructors, for starters.

I'd rather avoid destructors in that types of system.

> There's nothing preventing one from developing equivalent facililties
> as one might find in the soi disant standard library as part of the
> project and re-use those "classes" throughout multiple projects.
>

Everything can be developed from scratch. Not doing it improves
productivity. At least most of the time.

> In any case, the first C++ OS project I worked on ran from 1989 to
> 1997, and there was no standard C++ library available.  The first
> hypervisor project was 1998-1999 (skunk works at SGI -
> coincidentally, an early standardish C++ library originated at SGI)
> and the second hypervisor project was from 2004-2010.
> 
>

Used until scrapped or scrapped before used?

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Thread

Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-04 20:11 +0200
  Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-04 21:55 +0300
    Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2024-04-04 20:00 -0400
      Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-05 00:21 +0000
        Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-05 17:44 +0300
          Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-05 17:27 +0200
            Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-05 18:37 +0300
              Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-05 18:04 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-04-06 15:55 -0700
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 08:28 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-07 15:51 +0000
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 19:35 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 12:21 -0700
    Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-05 05:05 +0200
      Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-05 17:52 +0300
        Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-05 17:26 +0200
          Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-05 20:00 +0000
            Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-05 22:29 +0200
              Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-05 21:29 +0000
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-06 09:06 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-04-06 17:29 +0300
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-06 14:56 +0000
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-06 18:34 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 03:00 +0800
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 08:28 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-08 07:47 +0800
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 15:25 +0300
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 16:00 +0300
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-07 16:06 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 18:37 +0300
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-07 15:58 +0000
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-07 18:00 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 19:38 +0200
                std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 18:38 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-07 18:06 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 19:35 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-08 11:29 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-08 13:34 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-08 19:18 +0800
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-08 16:32 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-09 08:40 +0800
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 12:48 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-09 13:16 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-08 15:30 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-08 17:19 +0000
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 00:47 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-08 23:00 +0000
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 02:20 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-09 15:22 +0000
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-09 09:11 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 13:12 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-09 15:01 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-04-08 07:10 -0400
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-08 15:45 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-04-08 19:42 -0400
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-09 09:45 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 13:27 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-09 15:13 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 18:12 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-09 18:22 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-04-10 02:24 -0400
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-11 00:07 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-11 16:18 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-11 16:39 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-11 16:21 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-11 15:31 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-11 22:40 +0800
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-11 16:55 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-11 16:13 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-04-11 18:18 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-11 09:57 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-11 13:47 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-11 14:04 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-11 19:25 +0800
                Re: std::map advocacy scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-07 16:09 +0000
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 19:48 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 19:45 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-04-08 16:37 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 19:44 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-08 11:15 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-08 14:09 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-08 16:26 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-08 16:54 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-08 20:52 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 00:17 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-09 07:34 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 16:39 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 18:41 +0300
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 19:36 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-04-07 18:25 +0300

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