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Re: std::map advocacy

From Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c++
Subject Re: std::map advocacy
Date 2024-04-09 00:47 +0300
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <20240409004750.0000131f@yahoo.com> (permalink)
References (9 earlier) <uuuga5$2s7td$2@dont-email.me> <20240407193505.00004d17@yahoo.com> <uv0dd7$3diif$1@dont-email.me> <20240408133457.000005a9@yahoo.com> <rGVQN.157772$_a1e.63952@fx16.iad>

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On Mon, 08 Apr 2024 17:19:19 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> writes:
> >On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 11:29:11 +0200
> >David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> >  
> >> On 07/04/2024 18:35, Michael S wrote:
> >>   
> >> > Partially balanced binary trees, like those used by std::map and
> >> > by its relatives, are among the most predictable data structures
> >> > out here. Certainly they are far more predictable than generic
> >> > hash that in the worst case degenerates into O(N).
> >> > OTOH, in std::map of given size the difference in worst access
> >> > time between perfectly balanced case and most unbalanced case is
> >> > only 2x. And that applies not just for lookup, but for insertion
> >> > and deletion as well.
> >> >     
> >> 
> >> As far as I know, details of how containers such as std::map are 
> >> implemented are left to the implementation - they are not
> >> guaranteed by the standards.
> >> 
> >> Different types of systems have different needs.  C++ supports a
> >> huge range of uses, and for some of them, many parts of the
> >> standard library are simply out of the question.  The point was
> >> just that claims such as Bonita's that "it is impossible to use
> >> C++ without exception[s]", or that if you don't use the standard
> >> library you are "missing most of C++", are just ignorant nonsense.
> >>  People can choose what they need based on a range of requirements
> >> and preferences, and that's exactly what we want from a
> >> general-purpose language. 
> >
> >My opinion about standard library is very close to that Bonita, even
> >if possibly possibly for the opposite reasons.
> >IMHO, if you can't make good use of either C++ Standard library or of
> >the other key feature of the language - virtual functions, then it is
> >wiser to avoid C++ altogether.  
> 
> Now that's just as silly as Bonita's position
> 
> >BTW, I *don't* use C++ on small embedded targets.  
> 
> I do, and have.    Two operating commercial operating
> systems, a hypervisor, and SoC microcode; all in C++ (with some legacy
> C device drivers loaded dynamically).   Using a rational
> subset of C++ (with little run-time overhead) makes perfect
> sense for such an application given the data hiding and
> interface advantages of C++ over say, C.
>

What proof do you have that C++ was an advantage for your projects
rather than handicap?
Unlike standard library, the things you mention don't sound like
something that directly improves productivity.
In particular, is there really a productivity gain from sort of data
hiding available in C++ vs disciplined C with systematic documentation
and project-wide naming conventions? I am pretty sure that even if gain
exists it is below noise.

One "free" C++ feature that on paper could improve productivity in the
sort of project that you mention is constant expressions. I have
no experience with it, so can't say whether the gain is real or its
just my wrong impression.
This feature is relatively new, at least in form that no longer looks
like a toy, so I would guess that you didn't use it in at least 2 out of
3 project that you mention as success stories.

> 
> Because _you_ don't do something doesn't generalize.

Didn't I wrote IMHO ? I think I did.

BTW, in 90s and early 00s I held opinion similar to yours. Since than I
certainly gained weight and hopefully gained wisdom.

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Thread

Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-04 20:11 +0200
  Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-04 21:55 +0300
    Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2024-04-04 20:00 -0400
      Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-05 00:21 +0000
        Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-05 17:44 +0300
          Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-05 17:27 +0200
            Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-05 18:37 +0300
              Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-05 18:04 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-04-06 15:55 -0700
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 08:28 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-07 15:51 +0000
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 19:35 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 12:21 -0700
    Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-05 05:05 +0200
      Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-05 17:52 +0300
        Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-05 17:26 +0200
          Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-05 20:00 +0000
            Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-05 22:29 +0200
              Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-05 21:29 +0000
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-06 09:06 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-04-06 17:29 +0300
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-06 14:56 +0000
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-06 18:34 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 03:00 +0800
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 08:28 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-08 07:47 +0800
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 15:25 +0300
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 16:00 +0300
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-07 16:06 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 18:37 +0300
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-07 15:58 +0000
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-07 18:00 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 19:38 +0200
                std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 18:38 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-07 18:06 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 19:35 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-08 11:29 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-08 13:34 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-08 19:18 +0800
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-08 16:32 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-09 08:40 +0800
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 12:48 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-09 13:16 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-08 15:30 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-08 17:19 +0000
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 00:47 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-08 23:00 +0000
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 02:20 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-09 15:22 +0000
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-09 09:11 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 13:12 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-09 15:01 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-04-08 07:10 -0400
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-08 15:45 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-04-08 19:42 -0400
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-09 09:45 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 13:27 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-09 15:13 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 18:12 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-09 18:22 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-04-10 02:24 -0400
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-11 00:07 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-11 16:18 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-11 16:39 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-11 16:21 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-11 15:31 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-11 22:40 +0800
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-11 16:55 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-11 16:13 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-04-11 18:18 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-11 09:57 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-11 13:47 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-11 14:04 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-11 19:25 +0800
                Re: std::map advocacy scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-07 16:09 +0000
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 19:48 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 19:45 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-04-08 16:37 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 19:44 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-08 11:15 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-08 14:09 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-08 16:26 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-08 16:54 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-08 20:52 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 00:17 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-09 07:34 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 16:39 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 18:41 +0300
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 19:36 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-04-07 18:25 +0300

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