Re: std::map advocacy

From	wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c++
Subject	Re: std::map advocacy
Date	2024-04-11 19:25 +0800
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<9fdc553c8f60c42697bb2de21dedfc0ec8ef718b.camel@gmail.com> (permalink)
References	(20 earlier) <uv3euj$83fj$1@dont-email.me> <20240409181252.0000479f@yahoo.com> <uv5bbr$pndc$1@dont-email.me> <20240411000737.000038e8@yahoo.com> <uv854o$1j1af$1@dont-email.me>

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On Thu, 2024-04-11 at 09:57 +0200, David Brown wrote:
> On 10/04/2024 23:07, Michael S wrote:
> > On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 02:24:59 -0400
> > James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > > On 4/9/24 11:12, Michael S wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 9 Apr 2024 15:13:54 +0200
> > > > David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> wrote:
> > > ...
> > > > > complexity.  I only care about the implementation I am using.  And
> > > > > I don't care about its average speed, I only care about its
> > > > > worst-case spaces and times.
> > > ...
> > > > You continue to argue about unimportant theoretical possibilities.
> > > 
> > > He's doing the exact opposite of worrying about theorectical
> > > possibilities. He's saying that what the implementation he's using
> > > actually does is more important than your instance that it can only be
> > > doing something else.
> > 
> > He can check and see by himself that all toolsets that he uses have
> > std::map implemented on top of red-black tree. It's easy, sources are
> > here. But it seems arguing is more fun.
> 
> No, it is /not/ easy - sources for big C++ standard libraries are far 
> from simple to understand.  (That is in no way a criticism - I 
> understand why they are written the way they are.)  I could look up 
> sources and see identifiers or comments saying they use red-black trees, 
> but as I have already explained several times, knowing that does not 
> give me anywhere close to the guarantees that are needed before the code 
> is useable for hard real-time systems.  Of course I could study the code 
> for long enough, and do enough analysis and testing to establish timing 
> guarantees - but it would be vastly simpler and faster to write my own 
> data structures from scratch to fulfil real-time requirements.  I would 
> not expect my implementations to be faster on average for general usage 
> - indeed, I'd expect them to be a lot slower.  But /knowing/ the limits 
> is the important point, not the speed.
> 
Yup, the good point of std::list/set/map/... is that users can use it nearly 
blindingly. But when you calculate the gains/losses, things are different than
what is usually thought.

> If you don't know what real-time requirements are - what the phrase 
> "real-time" means - that's fine.  Most people don't need to know about 
> it.  Even most people who work with small embedded systems as a 
> profession don't really understand it - most embedded systems don't have 
> serious real-time requirements.  But some do, and the more advanced C++ 
> standard library features are not something that could be considered for 
> them.
> 
> If you are interesting it knowing what real-time means, I can try to 
> explain.  If you'd rather continue playing salesman for C++ standard 
> library containers, then we'll just have to leave it.
> 
> > And one of the the posibilities that he mentiond (wider nodes) does not
> > look like even theoretically possible for C++17 and later, because it
> > would mess with extract() and the rest of node-based APIs.
> > 
> 
>

Thread

Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-04 20:11 +0200
  Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-04 21:55 +0300
    Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Sam <sam@email-scan.com> - 2024-04-04 20:00 -0400
      Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-05 00:21 +0000
        Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-05 17:44 +0300
          Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-05 17:27 +0200
            Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-05 18:37 +0300
              Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-05 18:04 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-04-06 15:55 -0700
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 08:28 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-07 15:51 +0000
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 19:35 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 12:21 -0700
    Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-05 05:05 +0200
      Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-05 17:52 +0300
        Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-05 17:26 +0200
          Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-05 20:00 +0000
            Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-05 22:29 +0200
              Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-05 21:29 +0000
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-06 09:06 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-04-06 17:29 +0300
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-06 14:56 +0000
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-06 18:34 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 03:00 +0800
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 08:28 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-08 07:47 +0800
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 15:25 +0300
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 16:00 +0300
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-07 16:06 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 18:37 +0300
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-07 15:58 +0000
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-07 18:00 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 19:38 +0200
                std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 18:38 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-07 18:06 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 19:35 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-08 11:29 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-08 13:34 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-08 19:18 +0800
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-08 16:32 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-09 08:40 +0800
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 12:48 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-09 13:16 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-08 15:30 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-08 17:19 +0000
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 00:47 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-08 23:00 +0000
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 02:20 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-09 15:22 +0000
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-09 09:11 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 13:12 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-09 15:01 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Richard Damon <richard@damon-family.org> - 2024-04-08 07:10 -0400
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-08 15:45 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-04-08 19:42 -0400
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-09 09:45 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 13:27 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-09 15:13 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 18:12 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-09 18:22 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2024-04-10 02:24 -0400
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-11 00:07 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-11 16:18 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-11 16:39 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-11 16:21 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-11 15:31 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-11 22:40 +0800
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-11 16:55 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-11 16:13 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-04-11 18:18 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-11 09:57 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2024-04-11 13:47 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-11 14:04 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2024-04-11 19:25 +0800
                Re: std::map advocacy scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2024-04-07 16:09 +0000
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 19:48 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 19:45 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-04-08 16:37 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 19:44 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-08 11:15 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-08 14:09 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-08 16:26 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-08 16:54 +0200
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-08 20:52 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-09 00:17 +0300
                Re: std::map advocacy Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-09 07:34 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 16:39 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2024-04-07 18:41 +0300
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> - 2024-04-07 19:36 +0200
                Re: Ain't that beautiful ? Paavo Helde <eesnimi@osa.pri.ee> - 2024-04-07 18:25 +0300

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